Thread: M mount lens learning

My advise, don't listen to fora chatter of wannabe experts. Subscribe to Sean Reid's web page it's about USD 30 per year and worth the investment. You will find thorough, methodical and unbiased reviews of many many m-lenses, including ZM, CV and Leica makes. It's worth the money and the only review site I based m-lens decisions on. Read Tom Abrahamson's posts over at the Rangefinderforum, and you will learn a lot about many m-lenses. To start, I'd recommend the excellent CV 35 color skopar, tiny, relatively inexpensive. If it has to be Leica, go for the underrated ones, including the discontinued Elmar 50 mm f2.8 (newest generation), a true gem and reasonably priced. The CV 75 f2.5 Heliar is another excellent and affordable lens. Your biggest challenge, after all, will be to find a dog of an m-lens, as there aren't too many.

It's lovely camera Luke and I'm sure you'll enjoy using it.

As for lenses, I'll just say the more I've read about them, the more I believe that up to a point, the glass doesn't matter that much ... unless you have a super-critical eye or just shoot test charts ... heretical I know (and if I said as much at RFF the heavens would descend about my ears) ... don't get hooked into reading "lens reviews" ...

As for the Jupiter-12, I understand it can't be used on the Bessa as the rear element fouls the shutter (can't be used on m43 for similar reason) but there may be other Soviet 35s which are usable.

cameraquest.com is a good place for voigtlander info by the way, if you haven't found it already

Originally Posted by Luke

Armando, I spent less than 5 minutes researching lenses and saw some of your posts over on the rangefinder forums. Man, when do you find any time to work with all the forums you hit? ;) The Skopar you mention is kind of near the top of what I'm looking to spend since I'm not even sure I'm going to become a convert.

So let's imagine for a moment that a good copy of one of the Voigtlanders can give a simpleton like myself 90% of the experience of using a 4 digit lens for 50% of the price. Are there lenses out there that get get me 80% of the performance for 25% of the price? Should I just stay away from the Russian lenses? Are there other options that you would consider?

IMO, most if not all of the Voigtlanders give close to Leica performance at just a fraction of the cost. Like a good Leica-phile buddy of mine named Ashwin told me, the price increases exponentially for the last 5-10% of extra performance that one "may" get from a red dot lens over other brands.

The Cosina Voigtlander lenses I own and use extensively are:

Nokton 50/1.5
Nokton 35/1.4
Skopar 50/2.5 (least used lens of the five, because of the duplication)
Skopar 21/4
Heliar 75/2.5

I can wholeheartedly recommend any of them as they are all good performers. The two Skopar and the Heliar were purchased used. If I recall correctly, they were all less than $400. All, but the Nokton 35/1.4, are also screwmount lenses. So a screwmount to M adapter is necessary. Stephen Gandy at Camera Quest sells them. For Leica cameras, there are different types of adapters that are necessary to trigger the appropriate frame lines in the viewfinder. But for the Bessa, you have to choose the frame lines manually. But I'd still buy the matching adapters just in case you get a Leica in the future.

I also own a Leica 90 Summicron pre-aspherical that I bought used for a good price, but I have barely used it just because it's big and heavy (relative to other M lenses). It wasn't until about a month or two ago that I finally splurged big time (relative to other M lenses again), and got a 50 Summilux aspherical, which was more or less my single life parting gift to myself! Being completely honest though, the Nokton 50/1.5's performance is right up there with the 50 Summilux. At worst, to my eyes anyway, the Nokton gives 90% performance of the Summilux' performance at about 15-20% of the price.

In between the Voigtlander and the Leica's, from the standpoint of price point, there are the Zeiss. Some would argue that the Zeiss are every bit the equal of the Leica, if not better. The detractors argue that the Zeiss are made by Cosina Voigtlander in Japan, and therefore, they surely can't be as good as a German made Leica. I personally chuckle when I hear comments like that. For the Zeiss, I've owned and used the following:

Biogon 21/2.8
Biogon 28/2.8
Biogon 35/2
C-Biogon 35/2.8
Planar 50/2

Again, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend any of them as well. But they are more expensive than the Voigtlanders. And I no longer own any of them, because after using them, I really felt that the Voigtlander lenses are definitely more than good enough for someone like me. The only exception would have been the Biogon 21/2.8, which I thought was clearly superior to the Skopar 21/4. But it was also 3.5X the price of the Skopar.

Here are some samples using various lenses. They are going to be mostly photos of the fiancé, as she's the most willing photo subject that I have! Most photos have probably been somewhere in this forum before. All have been tweaked in LR.

Nokton 50/1.5



Nokton 35/1.4



Nokton 35/1.4 with Portra 160vc



Heliar 75/2.5



Summilux-Asph 50



Planar 50/2



Skopar 50/2.5



Nokton 35/1.4



Skopar 21/4 (I cropped the edges on this one to get rid of the cyan edges that occur when used on the M9)



Hope this helps to give you a rough idea. There are more photos on my Flickr as well. Good luck in getting your first M lens! And totally look forward to seeing your film photos from the Bessa!

Originally Posted by retow

My advise, don't listen to fora chatter of wannabe experts.

Serious Compacts members excepted of course

Originally Posted by Armanius

Like a good Leica-phile buddy of mine named Ashwin told me, the price increases exponentially for the last 5-10% of extra performance that one "may" get from a red dot lens over other brands.

You can attribute these to whomever you like Armando, but these are wise words indeed. Well said my friend
Excellent write-up and comparison, seems any lens is good in your mitts mate.

Originally Posted by stillshunter

Serious Compacts members excepted of course

No, including serious compact members such as myself! There is hardly a disappointing m-lens to be found. All it boils down to is personal preferences, tastes, likes, dislikes and budget. And nothing beats own experience, wherefore buying and trying is the best advise. The good thing about Leica lenses is that one does not loose money with them, provided they were bought used and at reasonable prices. I started with a mix of Leica and CV lenses and then added more Leica glass and had 2 ZM lenses over the years. One of the truly outstanding lenses is the ZM 25. I believe the only non Leica lens which even Leicaholics consider to be at least as good as the Elmarit 24mm, which by many is regarded as one of Leica's best.

I tend to know more about 50mm lenses from first hand experience. I have ~30 of them in Leica mount. I'm down to two lenses in 35mm FL for Leica: Voigtlander 35/1.2 Nokton and an early J-12 that I custom shimmed for the M9.

For 35mm focal length: The Canon 35/2.8 can be found at reasonable prices, but used to be cheap at ~$150. They've gone up. Same with the Voigtlander 35/1.7 Ultron- doubled in price in two years. The Jupiter-12 is the only "Cheap" Leica mount lens, ie under $100.

SO: The Jupiter-12. Quality control is all over the place, and it is made to the Russian standard which is slightly different from the Leica standard. Best results are gained by changing the shim to agree with the rangefinder for close-up and wide-open. The best ones are made by KMZ.

Note the Logo on the serial number ring, logo of KMZ.





I can verify that the J-12 fits both the M8 and M9.

Close-Up and wide-open on my M9.



100% crop:



Another wide-open:



This one is quite good. Better than 4 other non-KMZ J-12's that I have used. By F5.6, most are sharp.

This lens was $80, inclusive of shipping from Russia. So cheap and good lenses can be found, but some conservation of inconvenience is at work.



Adjusting the Shim.

Brian - do you know of any other Soviet 35s? (the J-12's rear element fouls the Bessa's shutter)

The J-12 is the only Soviet lens in the 35mm focal length that can be used on a Leica. There are others (37mm FL ?) on 39mm mount, but they are for the SLR's and have the wrong back-focus.

The Canon 35/2.8 will not have a problem- and is probably the "second lowest priced" lens in a 35mm focal length.

The next J-12 in LTM that I pick up cheap is going to be made into a 35mm F2 Wollensak. The 1960 J-12 in Contax/Kiev mount was soft, could only be used on the Contax II, not the IIa and IIIa. It could not be used on the EP2.





Not many 35/2's for Contax mount. Maybe only 1?

Time for work- will check back later...

wow, you are all a cumulative fount of knowledge. I really opened up the floodgates. Thanks all for sharing your knowledge. pdh...thanks for letting me know that the Jupiter won't work on the Bessa...you just saved me $80 (and possibly fouling my shutter!). Armando and Brian, those photos are great and quite informative.... thanks a bunch!

Originally Posted by pdh

As for the Jupiter-12, I understand it can't be used on the Bessa as the rear element fouls the shutter (can't be used on m43 for similar reason) but there may be other Soviet 35s which are usable.

Paul,

I did some research after reading your post and you are correct. Luke, strike the Jupiter 12 off your list.

Regards,

Antonio