Leica Absence of Leica X Vario in this thread

...and there's the rub. I have, over the years, had 13 Leicas, ranging from II and M2 to R7, M7, MP, D-Lux 4 and Digilux 2. Compared to that experience the VX leaves me cold. I am sure it can produce good results in the right hands (and I like the shot above) but it is a pastiche of what Leica has done, can do, and should be doing.

I can understand that. But what I heard was that Leica customers, perhaps those that use the X1/2, had been asking for a compact zoom. Leica is profitable and I assume they know and understand their market today. People like me don't have that same history :eek:

I shot for a while with the Zeiss Ikon, and while no Leica it was a fantastic experience. I still miss it, and film, but I gave up film last year. The deal was sealed when the rangefinder on the Ikon had to be realigned, went off to germany for a couple of months, then while shooting my first roll after it returned the speed dial popped off, springs flying all over the place. Argh.

I would agree that the XV does not align with that experience. But in my mind they are simply very different cameras, apples to oranges.

Bill, simply because I'm curious given your history with Leica, what should they be doing?
 
An interesting thread to read. I'd just finished reading A Man called Murph's thread about searching for a camera in which, I believe it was Boid, who brought up this very camera as a possibility. Here's an article that he gave a link to: Review: Leica X Vario Defies Naysayers with Impressive Optics which gave me something to mull over.

Andrew, I'm so glad that you've found the X Vario to be such a great camera for your needs.

I really liked the X1 a lot and then when I heard about the Fuji X100, I sold my X1 in order to buy the Fuji. I still have a and like the X100 but I've often wished for a camera that seems very much like this one.
 
An interesting thread to read. I'd just finished reading A Man called Murph's thread about searching for a camera in which, I believe it was Boid, who brought up this very camera as a possibility. Here's an article that he gave a link to: Review: Leica X Vario Defies Naysayers with Impressive Optics which gave me something to mull over.

Andrew, I'm so glad that you've found the X Vario to be such a great camera for your needs.

I really liked the X1 a lot and then when I heard about the Fuji X100, I sold my X1 in order to buy the Fuji. I still have a and like the X100 but I've often wished for a camera that seems very much like this one.

i echo this sentiment right down to being a happy (thrilled actually) x100 owner longing for a similar quality zoom. but i guess for me the term 'similar quality' doesnt just mean 'build quality' and 'good light IQ'. it also means an integrated vf (optical and evf--two plus years on and no one else has done that stlll), lens-set aperture, reasonably fast and good low light IQ. oh yeah, and maybe at a competitive price (willing to entertain a 'reasonable' red dot markup!)

anyway, whatever i or others of my ilk think, this camera will be used by some very fine photographers to create some lovely images.
 
An interesting thread to read. I'd just finished reading A Man called Murph's thread about searching for a camera in which, I believe it was Boid, who brought up this very camera as a possibility. Here's an article that he gave a link to: Review: Leica X Vario Defies Naysayers with Impressive Optics which gave me something to mull over.

Andrew, I'm so glad that you've found the X Vario to be such a great camera for your needs.

I really liked the X1 a lot and then when I heard about the Fuji X100, I sold my X1 in order to buy the Fuji. I still have a and like the X100 but I've often wished for a camera that seems very much like this one.


BB, I certainly did. But I would never buy the camera, even though I'm a bit in love with the Leica colour signature from the XV and wish my Nikons could spit out something half as beautiful. But for Murph, who shot slow and mostly landscape, it might be a godsend. As even Nelson Tan mentions in the post, it would be pretty useless as a street camera as the AF is too slow.
 
...
Bill, simply because I'm curious given your history with Leica, what should they be doing?

My sincere apologies Andrew, I had overlooked your question.

As far as I am concerned, Leica are fast losing my attention - and the plot - by releasing me-too specified cameras months or years behind the big boys. They are a minnow compared to practically every other company and the only way a minnow survives in such circumstances is to do something unique - or at least very different - superlatively well. This they used to do in the film era. The M8 was a necessary evil - cobbled together from bits and bobs it kept them in the game. It was only the largesse of Dr Kauffman that kept them afloat at that time.

Today their products are bloated (M typ.240) in both features and girth or missing the point - and, as time will tell, the market, with mis-steps such as the X Vario.

They must be kicking themselves that they abandoned their early digital partner - Fuji - and got into bed with Panasonic. Their documented unwillingness to go any further with micro four thirds puts that relationship in the "barren" category.

What should they do?

1. Abandon the X2 and XV. Introduce a range of APS-C interchangeable lens cameras with a high quality EVF, full weather sealing and a small range of high quality AF lenses to match. Make it unashamedly a Pro tool. Give it an M mount, to accept legacy lenses and the best sensor money can buy.

2. Bring out the next M without live view or video. Slim the body by making the mount protrude. Again, make it a Pro tool.

3. Set up a proper Pro support programme.

4. Ditch Panasonic. Get into bed with Fuji (if they will have them) - that would be the quickest route to 1. above.

5. Sack the marketing department and employ someone who understands Digital Customer Experience.

6. Discontinue the S2 - it cannot compete

7. Test products properly before bringing them to market

8. Announce products when they are actually ready to be released

9. And finally

10.Stop trying to be like everybody else.





Sent from another Galaxy
 
I don't know if the Panasonic link is any hindrance to Leica. Leica was and is still free to buy Kodak and then Sony sensors, and Olympus add-on EVFs. Panasonic provides small-sensor compacts for Leica to re-badge and make a few extra bucks, and Panasonic gets to write the word Leica on various cameras and lenses.
 
My sincere apologies Andrew, I had overlooked your question.

As far as I am concerned, Leica are fast losing my attention - and the plot - by releasing me-too specified cameras months or years behind the big boys. They are a minnow compared to practically every other company and the only way a minnow survives in such circumstances is to do something unique - or at least very different - superlatively well. This they used to do in the film era...

Hi Bill, Thank you for outlining your thoughts. I appreciate your perspective, but while I agree with some of what you say I also as a newcomer to Leica have a different perspective. I agree that the M should "get back to its roots" so to speak. I would love to have a digital Ikon or M - just the basics but do them very well. I do not use video on my cameras. I do, however, use the EVF with the GXR/Mount (APS) with my Zeiss C Sonnar 50mm. Still, I want a simple FF "M" to use that lens with and EVF is not required!

While I do not agree that the XV was a misstep (I do not know who it is selling or how it is meeting their expectations) I am super glad they released it. I love it and plan to use it for years. As I'm sure I mentioned, I prefer fixed-lens compacts and the XV is the only currently available fixed-lens APS zoom. And a good one to boot! I think the X1/2 is a good idea, just outdated in performance, and I would also like to see a series of them at different focal lengths much like the Sigma DP cameras.

From what I have heard Leica is profitable, which is more than can be said for most other camera companies these days. They must be doing something right.

BTW have you tried the Ricoh GXR Mount unit? Without the weather sealing and "HQ" EVF it just might meet your needs. It's been discontinued and bodies are hard to find, but the Mount unit is still available. Add the A12/A16 AF units it seems to match what you are looking for. The A16 is almost as good as the XV, but it is far clunkier to use. The A12 28mm is very good and the A12 50mm is super good. They have AA filters so they don't have the crispness of the newer cameras, but they render beautifully. The A12 50mm is still one of my mainstay cameras!
 
Bill

The only thing I would add, is that Leica should not to get into bed with Fuji but to get into bed with Sigma. Leica lenses and foveon sensors were made to go with each other.

But it may be too late. My DP2M and DP3M cameras have lenses which are equally as good as any Leica with the exception of the ridiculous exotic (vanity) glasses. Sigma actually do not need them to succeed.

But can Leica afford not to get into bed with someone with a lot more marketing nous, that is the question?

LouisB
 
Personally, I'd like to hear and see more from the Leica X Vario. My interest is duly piqued!

I've been searching around for this sensor with a zoom lens and with straightforward controls a la Leica X1 and the Fuji X100. This might be it.
 
I'm a Leica fan, but the Vario X is just so ... blah. It may have a wonderful (slow) zoom lens that is a perfect fit for the sensor in it. But is it better than a retro-handling combo of Fuji XE1 plus the excellent 18-55 lens? The Vario X is not much smaller than the XE1 + 18-55 either. Compact Camera Meter
 
My sincere apologies Andrew, I had overlooked your question.

As far as I am concerned, Leica are fast losing my attention - and the plot - by releasing me-too specified cameras months or years behind the big boys. They are a minnow compared to practically every other company and the only way a minnow survives in such circumstances is to do something unique - or at least very different - superlatively well. This they used to do in the film era. The M8 was a necessary evil - cobbled together from bits and bobs it kept them in the game. It was only the largesse of Dr Kauffman that kept them afloat at that time.

Today their products are bloated (M typ.240) in both features and girth or missing the point - and, as time will tell, the market, with mis-steps such as the X Vario.

They must be kicking themselves that they abandoned their early digital partner - Fuji - and got into bed with Panasonic. Their documented unwillingness to go any further with micro four thirds puts that relationship in the "barren" category.

What should they do?

1. Abandon the X2 and XV. Introduce a range of APS-C interchangeable lens cameras with a high quality EVF, full weather sealing and a small range of high quality AF lenses to match. Make it unashamedly a Pro tool. Give it an M mount, to accept legacy lenses and the best sensor money can buy.

2. Bring out the next M without live view or video. Slim the body by making the mount protrude. Again, make it a Pro tool.

3. Set up a proper Pro support programme.

4. Ditch Panasonic. Get into bed with Fuji (if they will have them) - that would be the quickest route to 1. above.

5. Sack the marketing department and employ someone who understands Digital Customer Experience.

6. Discontinue the S2 - it cannot compete

7. Test products properly before bringing them to market

8. Announce products when they are actually ready to be released

9. And finally

10.Stop trying to be like everybody else.





Sent from another Galaxy

A counterpoint of sorts to your post above.

To start, I am mystified by this doomsday scenario that is so often described regarding Leica's future viability as a camera maker. One look at their financial performance over the last couple of years would seem to indicate that not only is the company in a healthy financial situation, but is growing in a camera market that is actually shrinking. According to the company´s first quarter 2012-2013 results (the latest I could find information on) EBIT margin is in excess of 20%. Assets have increased by approximately 20% from the same period last year to 205.3 million euro. The workforce has also grown. This is very respectable performance for a company that not so long ago was at the brink of bankruptcy. To me, it looks like they are doing something right.

As to your recommendations, I will respond to them seriatim:

1. Why must they abandon the X2 and XV? Are they unprofitable models for Leica? Again, given their financial results, I would assume that they would not continue to produce models that are money losers for them. As to introducing a range of APS-C interchangeable lens cameras with EVF and autofocus, this sounds a lot like what Fuji is doing with their X lineup, and Sony with the NEX. Why exactly would anyone need another Fuji X-Pro, except with a red Leica dot?

2. What is wrong about having the M feature live view and video? The way they are built into the M they do not interfere with the camera operation in any way if you choose not to use them. Curiously, the addition of live view is the one feature of the M that may lead me to upgrade from my M9P. I fail to see how the inclusion of live view makes a camera any less "pro". As to the M being bloated in girth, I own both an M6TTL and an M9P, and while the difference in girth is noticeable, it is insignificant. Considering all that goes into a full frame digital body, it is by no means a small feat that Leica were able to keep the digital M bodies as compact as they did.

3. Ok, although I have nothing but high praise for the responsiveness of the folks at Leica NJ.

4. I honestly don't care if they ditch Panasonic, except that I must assume that the partnership is profitable for Leica, in which case it would seem foolish to give that up.

5. Please see my comment above on the Leica financial results. Sacking the marketing department of a company that is producing excellent results in a shrinking market does not sound like a sensible idea.

6. Compete with what? Are Hasselblad, Phase One, Rollei, etc. doing better? In any event, the S2 has been discontinued and replaced by the S. Again, hard for me to believe that Leica would continue to invest in an unprofitable camera line. Besides, the camera is unquestionably superb.

7. I will not argue this one, other than to say that it seems to be a common problem among all major camera manufacturers. A few examples of the top of my head: Fuji X10 orbs, X100 sticky aperture, Canon 5D falling mirrors, Nikon D7000 sensor crud (oil from the mirror, I believe), Canon 1D Mark III autofocus, and a few others I cannot remember right now. And, never mind the continuous firmware revisions.

8. Again, common problem among all major manufacturers, made more difficult in the case of Leica because of the size of the company. However, if the Leica marketing team were really not up to par, maybe I would be able to purchase an M today instead of next year.

9. And finally,

10. This one I simply do not understand, particularly in light of suggestion no. 1. Seems to me that bringing an APS-C interchangeable lens system to market would be more "trying to be like everybody else" than what they are doing now. The Leica M and S products are nothing if not unique. The X2 and X Vario are also fairly unique products. I just do not see who exactly is this "everybody else" Leica are trying to be like.

Regards,

Antonio
 
Just a quick aside here Armando my friend, from the many reviews that I've been pouring over from David/SoundImageplus, Luminous Landscapes, Steve Huff, Ming Thein and through what I've been able to read of Sein Reid (read his piece on Luminous Landscapes but can't for the life of me get on his site - must be too busy with people reading?), it seems to me that most feel that the X Vario is en par and some feel even better than the Fuji X-E1 with the 18-55mm lens.

I was really pleased to read how much Andrew likes this camera and has been able to use it in such a variety of circumstances - including for family snaps.

However, all that said what "it" comes down to for me with any camera is how I think it works for me and how it feels when I use it. We all have such different needs, wants and likes. Vive la différence! Beauty and blah are in the eye of the beholder.;)
 
BB: i totally agree that its great that some folks will produce lovely images with this cam, and will enjoy doing so. but do you consider it a positive thing that a $2500 fixed lens, slow zoom sans vf is considered 'en par' with a $1100 changeable lens, faster zoom with integrated vf?
 
No, when it comes to $$ one can't compare. I think when we get into costs all these cameras become such personal financial decisions. Leicas are always expensive.

P.S. What I'm trying to say is that you're right - it's a lot of money, but that expense is "all relative" to each person's situation. Believe me, it's a lot of $$ to me!
 
Three used XV and only two Sony RX1 at B&H. Data which can be interpreted in many ways. Now for the comparison of the XV with the XE-1 and kit zoom: Zoom range, dof control and IS of the Fuji are obviously superior and pricing of USD 3350 (incl. the EVF) versus USD 1200 allows to buy almost 3 (three!) Fujis for the same price. Or the Fuji and a used Sony RX1 and... or a OMD with the two f2.8 12-25 and 35-100 Panasonic zooms.
 
oh yes, i wholeheartedly agree. and further, no one ever need justify how they choose to allocate their resources. i guess i'm just the 'maserati' guy vs the 'ferrari' guy: if i can get a ferrari engine in a beautiful package and save $100,000, i'm driving a maserati!:D

btw, i drive a wrx, not a maserati! but kind of the same analysis, as it'll beat any porsche under $125,000 in 0-60!

double btw, no offense to ferrari or porsche drivers intended.;););)
 
It's different strokes for different folks. I've never understood why it is that one person's likes bother anyone else? Some people enjoy their Leicas, others their Fujis, other's their Canons...and still others enjoy multiple brands.

Right, Tony - I do see your analogy... Heck, I'm a MINI Cooper cult member.;)
 
oh yes, i wholeheartedly agree. and further, no one ever need justify how they choose to allocate their resources. i guess i'm just the 'maserati' guy vs the 'ferrari' guy: if i can get a ferrari engine in a beautiful package and save $100,000, i'm driving a maserati!:D

btw, i drive a wrx, not a maserati! but kind of the same analysis, as it'll beat any porsche under $125,000 in 0-60!

double btw, no offense to ferrari or porsche drivers intended.;););)

I think it's a rather apt analogy. Although I own neither, I have driven a WRX and several 911 Porsches. The WRX may beat the Porsche in 0-60, but the driving experience is completely different. And, you may find that you prefer the Porsche experience, even if it costs three times as much (or four? I´m not knowledgeable on Porsche or Subaru pricing).

Again, it comes down to personal preferences, your own perceived value for money, and what you can afford or feel you should spend for a particular item.

Cheers,

Antonio
 
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