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Fuji X20 at $599 or X10 at $379?

Discussion in 'Fuji Forum' started by Biro, Jul 21, 2013.

  1. Biro

    Biro SC All-Pro

    Aug 7, 2011
    Jersey Shore
    Steve
    A friend of mine has become interested in Fuji's X20/X10 family and the current price for new examples of these cameras (at least on Amazon) is $599 for the X20 and $379 for the X10 (which is interestly the same as the going price for a new XF1).

    So, of course, my friend asks me which is the better option. I almost defaulted to saying the X20 but I told him to wait a few days until I can ask the best and brightest at both Serious Compacts and FujiXspot. What say ye?
     
  2. greyelm

    greyelm SC Top Veteran

    844
    Oct 1, 2011
    London, England
    The X10 is still a great little camera that produces excellent images (as shown by the many posts here). The X20 is an 'improved model' which is well thought of. If this was to be your friend's main camera the X20 may be the better option however as a backup the X10 is better value for money.
     
  3. Lawrence A.

    Lawrence A. SC All-Pro

    Nov 8, 2012
    New Mexico
    Larry
    I owned both, and the X10 produces much better jpegs. If he is not interested in raw procressing, I'd strongly recommend the X10. I really liked both cameras, but I also enjoy working in Lightroom. The EXR sensor in the X10 is a little jpeg miracle.
     
  4. Biro

    Biro SC All-Pro

    Aug 7, 2011
    Jersey Shore
    Steve
    Ah ha! I think this is what my friend is getting at. If shooting jpgs most of the time (which he is likely to do), you say the output from the X10 is better. Important point. Additional input is welcome.
     
  5. nippa

    nippa SC Top Veteran

    561
    Aug 7, 2010
    Cheshire UK
    Dennis
    I too have owned both.
    The X10 produces nicer jpegs.
    The X20 produces better raw files but jpegs can be smeary with things like foliage , brickwork and skin texture.
    I returned my X20 for a Sony RX100 although if I were your friend I'd research a Panasonic LX7
     
  6. Biro

    Biro SC All-Pro

    Aug 7, 2011
    Jersey Shore
    Steve
    Well, I have the LX7 but I think he prefers the form factor of the X20/X10 - particularly the built-in OVF. Also, if he buys very soon, the X10 will be less money - until the LX7 goes on sale and drops below $300 again.

    What about auto-focus performnce and overall responsiveness? Is the X20 that much of an improvement over the X10?
     
  7. Luke

    Luke Super Moderator

    Nov 11, 2011
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
    I'd get the X10.
     
  8. Neiltluck

    Neiltluck SC Regular

    110
    Apr 20, 2012
    Derbyshire, England
    Neil Luck
    I'd have to agree that the X10 produces better jpegs and as a general day-to-day camera, I don't think it can be beaten.

    It does depend how much time your friend plans to spend in front of his computer post processing though, because as others have said, the X20 does produce good raw files, but they need time to get the best from with post processing.

    Personally, I would rather be out shooting!

    I am slightly biased, but I think the X10 offers the best bang per buck.
     
  9. Burkey

    Burkey SC Top Veteran

    622
    Apr 18, 2011
    Northern New England
    I've been watching this thread with a lot of interest. I did own an X10 and now have an X20. Yup, the X10 did, I believe, make slightly better JPEGS and yes the RAW files out of the X20 are easy tweaks in LR. At least from my point of view.
    However, as far from perfect as the OVF is in the X20, it certainly is a step up from the X10. I don't like holding a camera out in front me if I can avoid doing so. Feels, weird and dorky, quite frankly. The approximate area of focus the X20's viewfinder displays when the shutter is pressed half way is extremely helpful.
    I've been playing around with OOC JPEGS from the X20 lately and admit I haven't found what I might consider a good preset but I will continue to play around with it and report back later.
    I'm pretty happy right now with the X20 for what I'm using it for. Kinda' a quick grab family "reportage" thing I guess. If I want resolution that never seems to run out I'll grab my 5D MKII. But then I'd probably be shooting RAW anyway.
    Have a nice weekend folks. Good shooting. :smile:
    . . . David
     
  10. rbelyell

    rbelyell SC Top Veteran

    819
    May 14, 2013
    NY Mtns
    i dont mean to take issue with anyone who has had a different experience. much of this is subjective. ive had both and my personal experience was that the x20 offered a better 'user' experience because the vf has exposure information and focus confirmation, and the x10 has no info in the vf. this is why i anxiously and enthusiastically upgraded.

    however, the x20 IQ, again as a matter of my personal subjective opinion, was noticeably inferior to the x10, in jpeg, but also in raw. up close, like for typical portraits and snapshots, the x20 was very good. the subject is clear sharp and has more resolution than the x10. but as the subject recedes in distance the IQ deteriorates to the point where i felt i just couldnt accept the results. shooting raw did not help this situation for me; there just wasnt any detail in landscapes to recover.

    so, if he's only going to take portraits or do macro work, or if IQ is secondary to user experience, i say x20. otherwise the x10 takes it easily. btw, i sold my x20 and bought an oly xz-2 with which i am very happy.
     
  11. alessandro

    alessandro SC Regular

    97
    Sep 5, 2011
    Vicenza, Italy
    Got X20 after X10. RAW shooter only.
    Those having problems with foliage and such should look at different developers, the latest versions of Adobe's products are very good but still lacking somewhere.
    Le's clarify this one: the X10 is an exceptional 6MPx camera, with unrivaled jpg quality and very good but problematic RAW quality: it's non standard sensor and the fact that the developer has to cope with two 6MPx images can give problems. The 12MPx image is obtained by interpolation: sort of a super-resolution technique using two 6MPx images. The result is not on par with a true 12MPx sensor as the one of the X20 (which also gives problems cause of its non-standard characteristics).
    The X20 is quicker, with a better OVF (info) and will give more detail (but if you are ok with a 6MPx image, then the X10 is perhaps better in general). The sensors are so different to justify owning both cameras. For fast street action, the X20 is better, allowing also for some more cropping, but you have to expose more carefully (the X10 is much more forgiving WHEN USED at 6MPx with all EXR benefits). In high contrast scenery, I'd rather use the X10.
    For softer images with less grain, X10. For harsh(er) images, more detail/print size and some more grain even at low ISO, X20.
    For quickness, X20. For jpeg, X10.
    For a workable RAW, X20 if you are a normal user. If you can dig in the files with DCRAW, separating the two EXR images and having surprises as one frame ok and the other shake-blurred, then the X10 is a source of incredible surprises and extreme saves...

    All in all, I'm satisfied with the X20 but regret having sold the X10.
     
  12. Burkey

    Burkey SC Top Veteran

    622
    Apr 18, 2011
    Northern New England
    Quote - "much of this is subjective". Well said. :smile:
    I'm a print person and so far the images printed out to approx. 6" X 8" on my HP B8550 from X20 JPEGS shot in decent light have been pretty remarkable with only LR tweaks in presence and clarity. The key here is at least to some extent, "decent light". As Tony just mentioned the "user experience" offered with the X20 is pretty nice.
    But, I would have to agree, the X10 price right now is a good deal too.
    A good discussion all around.
    . . . David
     
  13. rbelyell

    rbelyell SC Top Veteran

    819
    May 14, 2013
    NY Mtns
    perhaps the x10/6mp statement above is true. i can only say ive done a tremendous amount of reading on that camera--pro reviews and user experiences--everything i could get my hands on, and i never came across that. allesandro seems to be referencing that maybe the x10 had an 'EXR' or some kind of hdr mode that i never used that brought the mp level down to 6...the 'interpolation' reference i believe only kicks in in this specific mode.

    if what i say is true, it is then inaccurate to refer to the x10 as a 6mp camera. i strongly believe the x10 shoots at 12mp in 'normal' mode and assumedly at 6mp (or an 'interpolated 12mp) in EXR mode. that does not make it a 6mp cam. the fact that i never used EXR mode and was quite happy with the x10s general clarity, and as well with the 'headroom' of its 'normal mode' 12mp jpeg files to make most any exposure compensation (highlight or shadow) that i ever needed, would then show at least some folks can happily use the x10 as a 12mp device.
     
  14. alessandro

    alessandro SC Regular

    97
    Sep 5, 2011
    Vicenza, Italy
    Well, it's quite complicated stuff... Indeed, its not correct to say it's 6mp, because it's 2x6mp...
    You should take apart an X10 raw file with DCRAW: you will find two frames, 6mp each. those are combined into one file, but the process to obtain a 4000x3000px file is indeed interpolation. In fact, you should imagine that sensor (or look at a good scheme) as two sensors on the same wafer, where the photosites of each one are alternate.
    The NATIVE count of pixels is 6mp, but for two distinct frames that get combined into one image.
    In case of 12mp use, the two frames are exposed equally, merged as median and upsampled at 4000x3000px. In case of 6mp, to obtain the DR expansion the frames are exposed differently (via an electronic shutter, yes), and merged in an HDR-style to get the best from each frame.
    But you will read better explanations in the brother forum fujixspot, where there is a guy that explains things much better than I do.

    Indeed, a 12mp image obtained by stacking/merging and upsampling two 6mp images is better than a simple enlargement, but not up to the detail of a native 4000x3000px sensor. Which is why the X20 has an edge in detail.

    But yes again, you are right: it's inaccurate to reference the X10 as a 6mp camera, I simplified things too much. This doesn't change my conclusions, the X10 and X20 are different cameras, and the X20 is not simply better, 'cause there are things the X10 does better, in particular in the DR field; but only if making full use of the EXR capabilities, which happens at 6mp (two differently exposed frames stacked). DR expansion at 12mp is the same shittish method of increased iso/underexposed image we have in the X20.
     
  15. rbelyell

    rbelyell SC Top Veteran

    819
    May 14, 2013
    NY Mtns
    alessandro, is the technical aspect of what youre saying applicable non EXR shooting on the x10? i find it hard to believe that when shooting in ordinary old aperture priority the x10 is taking and merging 2 pictures. i think that is simply not correct.

    the process youre describing is when shooting the x10 in EXR mode only. there is no stacking or merging of 6mp images when one uses the x10 in normal aperture, shutter speed or manual exposure modes. in those modes there is only one 12mp image. no interpolation. no merging, no stacking, no nothing.
     
  16. Luke

    Luke Super Moderator

    Nov 11, 2011
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
    rbelyell, if you're really interested (or have a lot of time to kill), there's a very well written explanation of the differences between the 2 cameras here ....... X20 vs. X10 | Fuji Rumors

    If I read it right (and it's certainly possible that my small brain screwed something up), the X10 is actually 2 6MP sensors and not a single 12MP sensor. So in regular Aperture Priority Mode (or S, P or M), you will get a 12MP image and there's no stacking or merging of images, but it might not be the same as the 12MP x20 image. Rico (the author if that piece) is a regular contributor at FujiXspot.com - Fuji X Series News, Rumors, and Discussion Forums. . If you have any more questions, I'm sure he can answer them better than any of us.
     
  17. rbelyell

    rbelyell SC Top Veteran

    819
    May 14, 2013
    NY Mtns
    thanks luke. i think theres confusion around this camera because fuji chose to call the sensor an 'exr cmos', and, additionally, chose to describe the cameras hdr software as 'exr' as well. the 'exr software' certainly operates by taking and combining two 6mp images to achieve 'higher dynamic range'.i do think the link is somewhat ambiguous on the point of native vs 'interpolated' 12mp results, though, of all the literally scores of reviews and analyses ive read, it is the only ive seen to mention a 'split sensor'.

    i'd like at some point to lob a call into fuji and ask them to set the record straight.
     
  18. alessandro

    alessandro SC Regular

    97
    Sep 5, 2011
    Vicenza, Italy
    Indeed, there must be stacking and merging in any case. The two native frames extracted separately using DCRAW are 2848x2144px each. Ever heard of "super-resolution"? You can do with any camera: take multiple shots and merge as median. Micro detail will be added and noise reduced. This way, you can upsample and obtain a good result. But nothing will substitute a greater native resolution.
    There is not, mathematically, the possibility that the EXR sensor could act as a single sensor: the count and disposition of the photosites does not work. It is made to produce two separate frames. And it's a great idea, but too "different" to be truly exploited by the known SW producers.
    I wouldn't like my posts were interpreted as diminutive. But truth is that the best use of the X10 EXR sensor is at 6mp, being the accent on 12mp a marketing requirement. It does, but that way it loses the advantages of that technology.
    The X20 sensor has got its own problems, but it's easier to exploit in PP. And this happens because Adobe and the others have been forced to solve the problems, cause that type of sensor is used in pro cameras that have had success.
     
  19. Gary1

    Gary1 SC Rookie

    Tony... I just ordered a XZ-2 yesterday as an upgrade of my Canon G12. I also looked at the x20, can you tell me why you traded your x20 for the ZX-2 and why? If you like it better, can you tell me why and if it has better IQ and sharper images? Thanks!
     
  20. SnapDawg

    SnapDawg Rorschach Test Pilot

    649
    Apr 18, 2014
    Canary Islands
    Ken
    I only had the X20 for a short time but the X10 for around two years now, enough time for 15k+ shots, a good number of large prints (up to 40x30 in B&W) and some random impressions but most have already been adressed in this thread. I mainly use it to shoot images for publications and it's good enough for 90% of that and my casual stuff and I don't leave home without it.
    Bottom line: if my X10 would die unexpectedly I'd have it immediately repaired or get another one - it's as simple as that for me, even though I mainly shoot L/RAW and develop in LR. I have to admit that especially the higher center resolution of the X20 is pretty tempting at times but basically the X10 gives me all I need and more and I owe that little beast a darn lot. Compared to the X20 I didn't notice any differences in AF speed, my copy definetely has the fastest AF of any CDAF cameras I've owned or shot so far in any conditions and I don't miss the upgraded EVF too much. On a side note: just three weeks ago I slipped and fell hard with the X10 in my right hand and the camera (lens extended) took some of the impact. It has some scratches on the body and filter ring now but that's it, my copy is built like the proverbial tank - no decentering, no nada. Around the same time I noticed two spots on the sensor, might be some dislocated debris (c'me on Fuji) but nothing to be too concerned about.
    PS: For some time now I've been looking forward to an one-inch successor to the X10/20 but a few days ago over at fujixspot I got a reply from Rico - the 'Fuji X-pert' that it "ain't gonna happen". Mhhhh ? Let's wait and see.

    "Sharp" enough at a distance ? Have a look at the fishing line ...