Has DPR gone completely around the bend or has my tolerance level just dropped?

[Djarum]

Amin,

I read most of the thread you started. What I found most interesting is that after the first two pages, the thread got back onto the equivalent lens and format nonsense. It only seemed as if one or two individuals actually wanted to discuss your point of the original thread. I think you hit the nail on the head. Freedom of speech does not apply to private forums. However, dpreivew does so little in moderation that people can get away with just about anything on that forum. There are even those who use that as an excuse to be rude and ugly. I personally believe moderation and common sense are necessary. I think some folks probably need to have a little thicker skin, but at the same time, I think people should be as polite as they can when trying to get their points accross.

About a week ago another member posted about being polite. Another member believed it was his duty to be overly harsh. I posted that most people have the capability to be polite, courteous, and nice about getting their point across. I was then presented with an argument of freedom of speech. I decided not to persue the argument further because I felt that there was no way to reach that individual.

I believe you expressed my thoughts regarding freedom of speech and private forums more eloquently than I ever could.

Jason

 

[Grinch]

A year and a half ago, when I decided to pick up photography after a 20 year hiatus, I found DP Review and was astounded by the hostility. It reminded me of THE VW VORTEX forum, with it's trolls and total disregard for the inexperienced. After about two weeks of searching I stumbled upon mu-43 and have yet to go back to DPR except when a link was on the previous and related to something of interest( but didn't log on or comment), or once in awhile for a review. It just isn't worth my time, if something truly pertinent comes up there, I just assume I'll eventually see a link, or I live in the world of ignorance is bliss. I don't think I've suffered not being there and after reading Ray's post, I'm sure I've made the right decision.

 

[stillshunter]

I have so little leisure time, that I try to extract pleasure from every moment. I'd like to spend more time shooting, and the internet is an evil, evil distraction But life is too short to waste even 1/250 of a second at DPR. It represents everything I hate in a photography site. Nothing but gear talk with excessive measurebation, GAS fuellers like reviews and studio comparisons, it's a place populated with nothing but trolls and spectators! Anything else written on there is done so by folks working for the electronics companies - directly or on commission - yes, protagonists and apologists BOTH!. Why would any self-respecting and self-conscious human being who genuinely enjoys photography bother over there....HONESTLY?

If our forum here even begins to approximate DPR then I'm out - and I hope our projected growth spurt doesn't aid or abet this. Then the only place left will be RFF....or to start a splinter site of our own of course. Maximum membership 500 by invite only!

 

[Brian]

Then the only place left will be RFF....

Not for me. I banned myself. Took a while to figure out out to circumvent the software from preventing a Moderator from deadlocking their own account.

 

[stillshunter]

Not for me. I banned myself. Took a while to figure out out to circumvent the software from preventing a Moderator from deadlocking their own account.

Well then Brian, it would be a pleasure to have you as a co-founder of our next site - crafted by subtraction, just the chipping away of all those bits we can't stomach from any other fora.

Not getting ahead of myself, of course, as SC is still the best there is and enjoy visiting and chatting on here. Just saying, you know, if we get too big and impersonal....

Just went to visit DPR again. Nothing but a toxic playground!!!

 

[Amin]

Someone from DPR actually asked me if I'd be interested in being a "community moderator" which I guess they're thinking of adding for the m43 forum, if not others. I basically said if they give me nearly dictatorial powers to ban certain longtime offenders and to delete posts as soon as I see a thread going in a bad direction, I'd think about it (not that I'd really want to take it on). But to the extent I'd have to play games with these idiots, some of whom are fairly determined to obey the letter of the law while destroying the spirit of the law, there's just no way I'd want to get into it. I'd want to deal with it sort of how the Supreme Court decided to deal with obscenity or pornography or whatever it was - "I can't specifically define it, but I know it when I see it". I haven't heard back, much to my relief but not to my surprise!

That... is one of those human nature irritations. Enthusiastic people can become tunnel minded people at times to the point of being hostile to anyone that doesn't 'see the light' or 'choose their side'. It's common in forums because it is common in society but more prevalent in forums because people feel that the internet provides them with a level of anonymity so they won't be held accountable. If anyone misbehaves or says something that could cause a problem on any one of Amin's forums, he or one of the mods see it they get to it right away. It sounds like the DPR chiefs are letting the indians run wild.

Anyone who has owned or moderated a forum has struggled with these issues. I don't think anyone would argue that freedom of expression isn't a good thing, and despite having been threatened anonymously by a forum member using a pseudonym, I believe in people's rights to post anonymously. Few would argue, though, that complete freedom of expression (hate speech, personal insults, etc) make for a good forum. When I suggested that repetitive arguments should be addressed by moderation at DPReview, I was labeled as "thought police".

I think it's important to have clear rules that can be moderated consistently by more than one moderator, but there's always going to be room for interpretation. You can say "No politics", and there will always be someone who disagrees about a statement being political. You can say "no personal attacks", and people won't always agree about their statement being an attack. My suggestion about repetitive arguments was viewed as a personal attack by the guy who does the most repetitive arguing, despite the fact that I acknowledged that I too had done too much repetitive arguing.

DPReview has a pretty decent set of rules, but they hardly ever moderate, and when they do, they are very inconsistent. A little bit of moderation would do a lot for those forums.

 

[stillshunter]

Wise words. Thanks Amin.

I moderate DPR by my absence.

 

[Biro]

I stopped even occasionally lurking on DPReview's forums some time ago. It's been years since I've actually posted there. The site is an excellent database and research tool. The tests are quite informative - the standard of the industry, even. But the forums are largely a waste. I suspect that, as long as they remain largely unmoderated, they will remain that way.

I believe it's a case of a few people ruining it for everyone. And, because everyone's anonymous, things are not always what they seem. In one case few ago, there was one particular poster who was a fanboy to one of the major DSLR brands in the worst possible way. There was simply no talking to him and he could be quite abusive. He knew everything. Another poster spent some quality time finding out who the fanboy was... and it turned out he was 15 years old and didn't even own a DSLR.

Maybe I'm just getting old but at this point in my life I have no tolerance for wasting my time any longer. If posters don't want to be helpful or engage in useful, informative discussion, then there's no need for me to spend any time on a given forum. There's enough unpleasantness in the world and when I'm on the Internet, I seek reliable information or the comradery of people who share some of my interests.

So... having said all that, I spend most of my Internet forum time on mu-43, Serious Compacts and Pentax Forums (which can get a bit unpleasant at times but nowhere near the level of the DPReview forums). I also respond to entries on the Online Photographer and Visual Science Lab blogs.

 

[Archiver]

I only read DPReview forums for the occasional bit of useful information I can find about using cameras, or new cameras. I like the Ricoh forum, as do many others, and I also like the Sigma forum. The Canon compacts forum isn't too bad, but the Fuji and Fuji X100/SLR forum is a veritable wasteland of idiocy. You could barely say anything negative about the cameras without someone telling you that 'it's not for you, you're an idiot'. Hm.

If DPReview is going to improve, it needs keen-eyed moderators with surgical ruthlessness and an iron fist mentality. They need to be able to ban offending posters at the drop of a hat and delete entire threads. It would also help if they made public announcements of bans, and include specific reasons for the ban. And if they worked to encourage productive posting through praise and more input, that would be good as well. But DPReview seriously needs someone who will take out the trash, and that means serial bullies.

 

[kyteflyer]

I visit DPR for gear info, camera comparisons etc. I have looked in on the forums occasionally, but a) I don't like the layout and b) I've actually never found anything useful there. As far as I could see, its always been full of trolls and self-styled experts, and really, does not have much to offer. I visit here, pentaxforums, plus a few aussie forums (not necessarily photography related). I think, Ray, you're just seeing it for what it is. I can't be bothered with it. Too much rubbish and attitude.

 

[drd1135]

Not to sound naive, but I've never understood the nasty stuff that appears in some forums. Of course, I don't go into bars looking for a fight either.

 

[Biro]

As I said earlier, I really believe its a few people making it bad for everyone. I'm convinced some people have multiple profiles and log-ins and I think Amin has said as much - either here or there. Drd... some people need to get lives. I've seen (or heard) this kind of behavior in amateur radio and CB radio as well over the years.

 

[Armanius]

It's easy to be rude, mean, and abusive when there's anonymity.

 

[Chris2500dk]

I still use DPReview's forums, but I definetely do a lot of mental filtering when I read it, and stay clear of the worst of it when I can.
It is a gear forum and people tend to focus a lot more on the gear itself than what can be done with the gear, whenever a new generation camera or lens arrives suddenly the older generations are viewed as obsolete and second rate.

Sometimes though very useful information is posted, and sometimes there are people asking for honest advise, and that's why I still read and post there.

 

[pictor]

I have never posted there, but I have read some threads from time to time and sometimes I still read there just out of curiosity. Sometimes useful information can be found there, but most times these forums just strengthen my skepticism concerning forum experts.

By the way, I have not been very surprised by this:

In one case few ago, there was one particular poster who was a fanboy to one of the major DSLR brands in the worst possible way. There was simply no talking to him and he could be quite abusive. He knew everything. Another poster spent some quality time finding out who the fanboy was... and it turned out he was 15 years old and didn't even own a DSLR.

I am convinced that this is no isolated case, although it is surely an extreme example. In my opinion all those fan boys don't know much about photography and should be ignored. Unfortunately, there are always some people who cannot ignore such trolls and tend to feed them no matter how much they strengthen them by doing that.

 

[Joey Wilson]

I actually came here after seeing the shamefully rude way AS was treated in the DP Forum he talks about above. I felt anyone who could stay a Gent in the face of such hysterical vitriol had to be a guy I wanted to hear more about.

While I respect DPR's reviews, it utterly flummoxes me why they let that crap rage on in their forums: It loses all credibility with me (although, it is a great blood pressure check for me . . . . ). For me, a great problem in the www as well as life in general, is somehow folks have lost the ability to disagree and yet still stay civilised. Just because I may not agree with your feelings/conclusions about a particular camera, does NOT mean I hate you, have rude thoughts about your family, or want to burn you at the stake just because I would not make the same choice as you. You'd think Nilon vs. Canon has turned into the Hatfields and McCoys. I don't understand how the DPR Forums have turned pixel-counting into a combat sport.

I'm certainly an outsider, equipment wise. I'm very traditional, yet somehow, here, no one has set the dogs loose upon me, and I really appreciate it, and Thank You Armin and all of you for keeping this a nice place to visit and learn.

Joey Wilson

 

[Djarum]

It's easy to be rude, mean, and abusive when there's anonymity.

I think this is at the heart of the problem

 

[Xuereb]

Belligerence and snobbery commonly found at DP is so inimical to the creative spirit and support one finds here.

 

[Archiver]

I agree. Amin has created and fostered a very friendly and supportive community. I think it says something about Amin that he has attracted this kind of person and behaviour. The GetDPI forums tend to be supportive as well, from what I've seen. Rangefinderforum is also very supportive, as is Pavel Kudry's Ricoh forum. Here at SC I feel a surprising sense of community and family, which is rare for an online forum.

 

[pdh]

Interesting, I regularly read at RFF but have been put off posting by some of the vitriolic personal attacks I have seen over the most apparently innocuous issues - although oddly enough, rarely over cameras and usually over matters of money or taste ...

It does exist on all sorts of forums, photographic and otherwise, and it doesn't seem to me that anonymity makes so much of a difference as the lack of physical presence (maybe that's what people mean by anonymity) ... having said that, I've been threatened with physical violence in the non-virtual world merely for driving the brand of car I do ... oh well ...