1. Reminder: Please use our affiliate links for holiday shopping!

Leica X2?

Discussion in 'Open Gear Talk' started by olli, May 3, 2011.

  1. olli

    olli Super Moderator Emeritus

    Sep 28, 2010
    Metro Manila
    olli
    With all the attention on the Fuji X100 the Leica X1 seems like yesterday's news. Now it seems that Leica might be fighting back with rumours of an X2 sporting the 16MP Sony sensor that is currently impressing in the Sony A580/A55, Pentax K5 and Nikon D5100/D7000.

    Since the X1 has been around since September 2009 it was probably due for an upgrade soon anyway but undoubtedly the success of the X100 has concentrated minds at Leica.

    More at 1001 Noisy Cameras
     
    • Like Like x 4
  2. Pelao

    Pelao SC All-Pro

    Jul 11, 2010
    Ontario, Canada
    Stephen
    Interesting times: the Panasonic G3, Sony Nex-7 and A77, maybe something from Olympus, and now this - all mixed up with the the impact of the X100.


    Time to go outside and make some photographs :rolleyes:
     
    • Like Like x 3
  3. soundimageplus

    soundimageplus SC Top Veteran

    578
    Jul 6, 2010
    I've no doubt you're right. The X100 is a direct competitor and must be taking sales away from the X1. Be interesting to see what they come up with. Certainly the sensor is an excellent one, though the X100 sensor might still have the edge for low noise.

    However the X1 apparently had the same sensor as in the Nikon D300 and Leica (and their electronics partners) made that into a very good high ISO performer.

    Interesting to see if they come out with the same useless, overpriced optical finder or go for something that might actually help when taking pictures!! That thing was so innacurate.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  4. Streetshooter

    Streetshooter Administrator Emeritus

    Jul 12, 2010
    Philly, Pa
    Leica probably can't compete with the X100. They could never get the edge at the price of the X100. If they lowered the price of the M8.2 to $1500.00 USD, they could compete.
    That can't happen. So how could they get an equal contender or even a camera with the EDGE? They can't. The finder in the X100 kills anything Leica could even think about introducing.

    The should stick with the M cameras and let the X1 series just fade away.
    There, in the M camp, there is no competition.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  5. christilou

    christilou SC Hall of Famer

    Jul 13, 2010
    Sunny Frimley
    Having bought an X1 last year and had to return it within the first six months for repair, it's currently the brand I feel the least confidence in and that's saying something about the Leica name!! I have rarely used mine apart from a couple of trips. I had to invest another £275 for the Brightline viewfinder which immediately makes the camera less portable and it's certainly not a pleasure to use by any means. It's capable of great image quality but it's not enough for me I'm afraid. I will probably try and sell mine at some point as I keep forgetting I have it :) Once bitten, twice shy. I wouldn't upgrade to an X2.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  6. andrewh973

    andrewh973 SC Regular

    132
    Mar 13, 2011
    NYC metro are
    I couldn't agree more. Leica would be better off devoting R&D funds upgrading and improving upon the M series, as well as keep perfecting a camera or two within the compact range. Then there's the S...
     
    • Like Like x 4
  7. Armanius

    Armanius Bring Jack back!

    Jan 11, 2011
    Houston, Texas
    Jack
    I'd like to see a X2. But Leica really needs to create a user friendly and more affordable product. While IQ is very important, so is fast AF, interface, and PRICE! Like Shooter said above, how can Leica compete with the X100 if it is going to price the X2 at 2X (pun intended) the price of the X100??

    There are only so many Leica fanboys that will buy Leica no matter what. So if Leica has any desire to compete with the X100, they need to make the product more appealing to a wider segment of the market.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  8. BBW

    BBW Administrator Emeritus

    Jul 7, 2010
    betwixt and between
    BB
    Have to agree with everyone. Although I was seduced by Lady X, once I heard about the Fuji X100..and became a little frustrated with my abilities and the X1...I decided to sell her. I hate the way that sounds.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  9. ZDP-189

    ZDP-189 Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/#!/ZDP189">@Z

    64
    Apr 18, 2011
    I haven't been shooting my X100 much recently. In fact I just found it under the bed. It's been gone a week or two. I figured I must have lent it to someone.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. BBW

    BBW Administrator Emeritus

    Jul 7, 2010
    betwixt and between
    BB
    Well, Dan, should you decide you don't want that camera anymore, I'm sure you can find her a new home.:wink:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Pelao

    Pelao SC All-Pro

    Jul 11, 2010
    Ontario, Canada
    Stephen
    I agree that it seems the X100 has put Leica in a difficult price / performance place. It would take a major shift for them to match it, especially in the price areas: and by match I mean come close, because I can't seem them being willing (positioning) or able (volume) to actually match. I will wait though to see what happens before passing judgement on the actual camera. Since the new management team came to town Leica has kept what made it good and added some general business and marketing acumen.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  12. Streetshooter

    Streetshooter Administrator Emeritus

    Jul 12, 2010
    Philly, Pa
    Well, I'm a die hard Leica user. Well, I was all my life.
    So it's obvious that there's no bias from me....:rolleyes:

    Anyway, Leica or anyone that brings out a new camera in the format of, or close to the X100....must pay attention to the viewfinder. The days of just having a screen are passing by and maybe even very quickly.

    The X2, without a finder built into the camera will never compete with the Fuji.
    If Oly comes out with a Pen 3, it should have the viewfinder. Maybe the Pen 4 but Fuji will not rest on it's success. Surely they are already pushing the envelope for the next model.

    Leica has unmatched quality and customer service....I know this from experience....the problem is, they are also unmatched in the price range also.
    I wish them good luck. I certainly wouldn't want to be in any camera manufacturers shoes. To have to look at the X100 and think, now what do we do.......?
     
    • Like Like x 5
  13. soundimageplus

    soundimageplus SC Top Veteran

    578
    Jul 6, 2010
    I'm hoping that what they do is take note of whats mostly causing all the fuss about the X100, the viewfinder.

    To a certain extent the lack of decent built in finders can be seen as a combination of laziness, cost and ease of manufacture. I just wonder how many manufacturers think that since they aim their CSC's or the like mostly at upgrading point and shooters they can "get away" with just a screen or an add-on optical or electronic viewfinder.

    There was an interview with someone from Panasonic attempting to justify this with some nonsense about cool hip young dudes preferring holding the camera in front of them and boring old f***s preferring viewfinders.

    Speaking as a cool hip, yet older dude I would question this. Firstly I dont know anyone with a camera, of whatever age or hipness who thinks using a screen, particularly in bright sunlight, is a satisfactory way of taking pictures. In fact many think that holding the camera in front of them is decidedly uncool.

    I've shown the X100 to lots of people and once they look through the viewfinder the reaction is usually "Wow, thats great". And believe it or not some of these people are actually not receiving a pension!!

    I often wonder if manufacturers and camera designers ever actually talk to people about what they want and instead of just making assumptions about us as photographers, maybe they should. I've said often enough that the question I get asked by virtually everybody who asks me for buying camera advice is can you recommend one with a decent viewfinder because using the screen is hopeless in sunlight. Unfortunately at the price point most of them mention I can't.

    Back to Leica. We certainly won't see anything like a rangefinder system in an "X2" Apparently the one in the M9 costs £1500!! If it does appear, and like Don I'm somewhat skeptical, it surely has to have something better than in the X1. What that might be is anybodies guess but a slightly upgraded X1 is a waste of time and money on their part. My guess is they may leave it until they can come up with something worthwhile, possibly with Panasonic. However I am convinced they are interested in this "Serious Compact" section of the market, and probably see it as natural territory for them. I also think they won't be that bothered about bringing it in at a certain price. Leica charge what they charge and they aren't about to change that.

    I also hope that Panasonic, Olympus, Samsung, Sony et al, are taking note of the X100. However I'm not convinced they will. Its cheaper and easier to make a camera without a decent viewfinder and they will attempt to justify this with their usual "People don't really want one" line.

    Finally going back to this Young = Using the screen, Old = Viewfinder nonsense, could I just remind these camera manufacturers as to who is the largest section of society with the most disposible income? i.e. Who's got all the money!!

    Viewfinders rule!!
     
    • Like Like x 6
  14. christilou

    christilou SC Hall of Famer

    Jul 13, 2010
    Sunny Frimley
    Well said soundimageplus! I'm not ever going to buy another camera without a decent viewfinder of some sort. Holding the camera at arms length is NAFF!!! (whatever age you are :wink:)
     
    • Like Like x 5
  15. soundimageplus

    soundimageplus SC Top Veteran

    578
    Jul 6, 2010
    Indeed, after getting the X100, neither am I. Like you I bought the X1, and despite being impressed with the image quality I became frustrated by the slowness and feeling forced to use the screen because the bolt on viewfinder wasn't that great. I read your posts on the fact that you had to return it for repair and that the firmware upgrade didn't really improve things much, which isn't encouraging. Like you also I found I was using mine less and less until I decided enough was enough and I sold it.

    That Fuji have in essence "stolen" Leicas thunder here may wake them up. The X100 is surely the camera Leica should have made themselves. I have some concerns about whether the Fuji can stand up to heavy use, but as you indicate robustness doesn't seem to be a feature of the X1 either.

    To my mind there is an obvious X2. A Leica / Panasonic collaboration that has the GH2 sensor and built in EVF plus Leica design and lens. Make it suitably retro and you have something for the forums to bicker about for months. If it was m4/3 then it could use m4/3 and Leica lenses. Or how about going really radical and making it APS-C, interchangeable lenses and a Leica M-mount? Or how about two models? If nothing else CSC's including the Pens and the X100 have shown just how popular this blend of retro and technology is. Leica certainly have the retro and the lenses and Panasonic have the technology. Rather than just sit around and let Fuji steal this market away from them perhaps they should be thinking, what can we do thats better? After all this high end market is probably the least affected by the recession.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. BBW

    BBW Administrator Emeritus

    Jul 7, 2010
    betwixt and between
    BB
    Excellent points, and as a rather cool, "middle aged" (can I stretch that...and get rid of the 'boring old f**t' part?:tongue:) shooter, I like choices and a good viewfinder is something I will love.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. pdh

    pdh SC Legend

    Jan 2, 2011
    hmm ... following on from soundimageplus' thoughts, i have to say, if there was an M9 the size of my E-P2, I might sell some body parts ...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. BBW

    BBW Administrator Emeritus

    Jul 7, 2010
    betwixt and between
    BB
    :eek::wink:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Luckypenguin

    Luckypenguin SC Hall of Famer

    Dec 24, 2010
    Brisbane, Australia
    Nic
    Just to be different, I'm going to say that using an E-P1 has weened me off viewfinders after six years of using SLRs, even with it's below average 230K LCD. I find the WYSIWYG display and the ability to frame a shot from different heights and angles is a big advantage over an optical finder.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  20. Streetshooter

    Streetshooter Administrator Emeritus

    Jul 12, 2010
    Philly, Pa
    Nic,
    That is a great point and I totally understand you.
    The thing is, people expect Leica to be the benchmark in quality. So to introduce an X2 that is only a minor upgrade from the X1...well, the writing is on the wall.

    It seems that the tide has changed. Remember that the X100 also has a screen.
    This is key to the other manufacturers dilemma. How to better the X100 at around the same price point.
    I love screen shooting also. It's the biggest reason I went to the Nex. Simply put...there is no better screen.

    The X100 finder will no longer be an option but a forced improvement to most serious cameras in the future. Leica is against a very tough competitor in the X100.
    The X2 should but probably won't address this feature.

    There is a new benchmark in town and it's not wearing the Leica name.....
    but it is grabbing the Leica shooters...
     
    • Like Like x 1