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RX100 III or G7X?

Discussion in 'Sony RX100 Forum' started by Peytonphoto, Oct 5, 2014.

  1. Peytonphoto

    Peytonphoto SC Rookie

    23
    Oct 4, 2014
    Between the RX100 III or G7X, there are the obvious differences in focal length, but for someone looking to use Auto mode nearly all the time, does Sony's Auto work better than Canon?
     
  2. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs SC Legend

    Sep 21, 2010
    Not too far from Philly
    you should be able to figure it out...
    I seriously doubt that either one has an advantage. All modern P&S cameras are pretty decently set up for fully automatic shooting. I doubt one is much smarter or dumber than the other. I know a lot of people like Canon jpeg colors more than Sony, so that might be something to take into account if you have a preference either way. But I'd decide based on your preferences for focal length and EVF. I didn't like the interface of the RX100 for the kind of hands on stuff I usually do, but my I gave it to my wife, she shoots it in full auto, and is perfectly happy with it. I'd imagine the same would be the case with the G7X but I'm not giving her this one! :biggrin:

    -Ray
     
  3. lenshoarder

    lenshoarder SC Veteran

    383
    Mar 7, 2012
    I would go check the PowerShot forum at dpreview. There are a lot of threads talking about the G7X right now, many comparing it to the RX100. One that stands out for me is the one that shows that the lens on the G7X doesn't cover the entire sensor. So the G7X crops the center 18MP and then digitally scales the image back up to 20MP. That would explain the oversharpened with artifacts look the G7X has when pixel peeped. People hoped that shooting raw would get around that. But then you are then left with a 18MP instead of a 20MP camera. Looking at the samples that have been posted, I think the RX100M3 still has the edge in IQ.

    The lens on the G7X was it's big advantage. It looked great on paper but Canon made compromises to get that focal length.

    As for auto on the RX100. It works about as well as any other camera. I find it picks slower shutter speeds then it needs to based on how well the RX100 does with high ISO. So many times I put it into shutter priority to get around that. Otherwise, I have no complaints.
     
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  4. Peytonphoto

    Peytonphoto SC Rookie

    23
    Oct 4, 2014
    Wow, I wasn't aware of that issue, thanks for letting me know. Here I thought the G7X had an EVF...that alone might make me not consider it.

    It's great to have a longer focal length, but given the issue you discussed, it seems to defeat the purpose...kind of like your getting less than it appears.


     
  5. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs SC Legend

    Sep 21, 2010
    Not too far from Philly
    you should be able to figure it out...
    All of these small cameras have compromises - the RX100 is chock full of them too. That's how they shoehorn such a nice and relatively large sensor into such small cameras. The differences in IQ between the two are in pretty limited circumstances - particular focal lengths at particular apertures. For example, the G7X is pretty soft at 100mm wide open at f2.8, but it's not bad at 85-90mm, and at 100mm it's tack sharp by f3.5, still more than a stop faster than the first two versions of the RX100 has available at 100mm - and of course the RX100 III doesn't have anything longer than 75mm and the first two don't go wider than 28mm.

    I'd still contend that the differences in IQ aren't gonna pop up much if you're shooting in full auto and are mostly gonna be noticeable to pixel peepers anyway. I'd still contend that your best basis for a decision is the extra capability of the G7X vs the evf of the RX100 III. Or if you've seen the jpegs from both and have a preference for one or the other, take that into account also...

    -Ray
     
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  6. Peytonphoto

    Peytonphoto SC Rookie

    23
    Oct 4, 2014
    It's seems the RX100 III is a bit more refined than the G7X?

    Did Canon try to differentiate by having a longer zoom, but running into the same issue as noted in the RX100 I and II of having softer images, especially at the wide and zoom focal lengths?
     
  7. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs SC Legend

    Sep 21, 2010
    Not too far from Philly
    you should be able to figure it out...
    Well, the RX100 III is a third generation camera, although it took a different direction with III than either of the first two, so in some ways it is and in some ways it's not. The G7X clearly tries to do more with the lens than Sony does and it succeeds, but, as is always the case, it doesn't succeed without some tradeoffs. ALL of these small cameras have compromises - it used to be the sensors were compromised compared to what was available and now that the sensors are so good and so relatively large, it tends to be the lens where the tradeoffs occur. The Canon's lens does more than the Sony's lens and around some of the margins, it does it less well. OTOH, where it does it a bit less well is where the Sony doesn't even go, so you've got more capability but at the extreme uses of that capability, you've gotta be aware of it's weaknesses to use it most effectively. As I noted elsewhere, the G7X is rather soft at 100mm wide open at f2.8. Useable for portraits, but notably softer than it is at f3.5, where it becomes tack sharp. Is that a weakness or lack of refinement? The first two iterations of the RX100 only goes to 100mm at f4.9 and the third version stops well short at 75mm. The G7X requires somewhat more software correction at the 24mm end than the RX100 III (the other two don't go that wide), but it's really only visible wide open, in the extreme corners, and under pretty severe software correction. At the end of this post is a shot taken today at f4 at 24mm equivalent. You can pixel peep the corners and decide for yourself if it's a problem. It's not for me, but I guess for some hard-core landscape shooters it might be. Frankly, if I was THAT picky, I wouldn't be shooting any of these compact zoom cameras to begin with. I have other gear for that kind of critical IQ - I don't expect perfection out of a pocket zoom, but YMMV. In short, I'd say any image quality differences are minor and in areas the RX100 III doesn't go.

    And I'd personally say that the G7X is much more refined in terms of it's controls which are much more shooter friendly than the RX100's. That's subjective for sure, but the un-engaging controls of the Sony have been a common complaint among reviewers of the RX100 since the first generation and it's still a complaint with the third. Sony didn't learn or didn't consider that a problem for the market they were after. There haven't been many finished reviews of the G7X yet, so I don't know what the consensus will be on the G7X, but to me, it's vastly better in this regard. I suspect I won't be alone in that regard, but I could be wrong. I prefer the ergonomics of the Nikon Coolpix A to the Ricoh GR, and I'm in the very very small minority on that one, so I may be in the minority on this one too. :cool:

    I personally don't think the RX100 is more refined than the G7X. I do think it has different strengths and weaknesses. For my money, it's only really meaningful strength is the evf, but others may find other things to prefer about it. Oh, Sony does incredible stitched panoramas in camera - they pioneered that and I think they still do it better than anyone, so if you're into panoramas but not enough to do 'em yourself, that's a definite strength. To me, the strengths of the G7X are the greater greater capabilities of the lens and the much better UI. I don't think the differences in IQ are worth much consideration at all having owned both and looked at both quite a bit. For raw, it's the same sensor with the same characteristics, with slightly different tradeoffs with the lenses. For jpegs, some may prefer one over the other - I think more people seem to prefer Canon jpegs, but I'm completely agnostic on that one. I try to avoid jpegs when at all possible.

    -Ray

    15449324681_443703be5a_h. G7X West Chester-34-Edit by ramboorider1, on Flickr
     
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  8. Peytonphoto

    Peytonphoto SC Rookie

    23
    Oct 4, 2014
    Yeah, here I thought the G7X definitely had an EVF so without it the G7X is not an option. I have messed up one too many pictures on sunny days where I told myself I would never own a camera again without an EVF.

    Look forward to hearing from other RX100 III owners on their thoughts of the G7X.


     
  9. lenshoarder

    lenshoarder SC Veteran

    383
    Mar 7, 2012
    I think Canon did try to differentiate itself with the lens. But there are compromises. It's not just that it doesn't cover the sensor, it's also that the distortion at the edges seems to be more than the RX100. Cropping the sensor to extend focal length is something Canon has done before. But I think this is the first time they've digitally zoomed the image to have a higher resolution. Before they took a 16MP sensor and cropped the 12MP center to boost focal length. But it outputted 12MP images and they sold it as a 12MP camera. This time they chose to upscale the images to 20MP instead of calling it a 18MP camera. They probably did that so they could market it as a 20MP to compete with the RX100.

    Did you check out that DPR thread with the sample images? The raw 100mm image from the G7X doesn't seem show as much zoom as it should compared to the raw 70mm image from the RX100.
     
  10. ptan55

    ptan55 SC Regular

    26
    Nov 19, 2013
    Toronto, Canada
    Have you considered the Panasonic LX100?
     
  11. Peytonphoto

    Peytonphoto SC Rookie

    23
    Oct 4, 2014
    Yes. But might be a little more camera then what I need.

     
  12. colonel

    colonel SC Regular

    57
    Apr 25, 2013
    London
    Ray, you seem to prefer the Canon
    Is there anything specific that you can point to in handling ?
    I have looked at both and the Sony seems nicer and more refined
    The Canon just seems to be thrown into an S120 body with a long lens added (aka RX100 version i), but since its soft at the long end doesn't seem to be a point and the EVF is much more useful
    just my take
     
  13. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs SC Legend

    Sep 21, 2010
    Not too far from Philly
    you should be able to figure it out...
    I think I've spelled it out elsewhere. Here are some things that matter to me - these specific things may not matter to many people but I figure that if I could find this many useful features for the very specific ways I shoot, there's probably more there that others would find similarly useful for their own specific needs:

    1. Dedicated Exposure Comp dial, visible on the top.
    2. Distance scale for manual focus
    3. Ability to recall manual focus distance in a "custom" set linked to the "C" setting on mode dial.
    4. Auto ISO available in Manual mode - WITH exposure compensation
    5. Some control of minimum shutter speed with auto-ISO in A or P mode - not as refined as I'd like, but usable for me - Sony doesn't have anything of the sort in ANY of it's cameras. I'd love a firmware update to get this in the RX1.
    6. Programmable clicking ring on lens that can be set for step zoom. I don't recall exactly how the lens ring on the RX100 worked - whether clicking or seamless
    7. A couple of fully programmable buttons - I also don't recall what the RX100 offers here - it might have the same.
    8. ND filter - I believe the RX100 III has one now too, but the first two didn't...
    9. The touch-screen can be really useful for some types of shooting. I don't personally use it much, but occasionally the touch to focus for off center focus points is really nice. Some people have commented that touch focus is really useful for video, but I roughly never shoot video. And I think on balance most people find the RX100 III to be a better video camera anyway...

    The combination of these features make it a simple matter to save all of my street shooting settings to the "C" setting on my mode dial, so that I can turn the mode dial and it will put the camera in manual focus, focus will be set to two meters, my aperture will be set where I want it, auto ISO will be set where I want it for street with the minimum shutter speed set the way I want it, the step zoom will set to my preferred street length, etc, etc, etc. Street shooting on the RX100 was a series of kludges that I had to use EACH time I wanted to switch into street shooting mode - I can set the Canon up so there's one flick of the mode dial to be fully ready for that type of shooting. And then I flick it back to "A" mode to change all of my settings back to my more normal, non-street, settings. This sequence was a prohibitive pain in the butt on the RX100 and some of the key things couldn't be done at all, so I basically didn't use the RX100 for street shooting after the first few frustrating days of getting it set up once and never turning the camera off or switching out of my street settings.

    Again, I don't expect these specific issues really matter that much to most shooters, but if this type of customization is possible for MY very specific needs, I can't imagine there aren't similar options for anyone else's specific wants or needs.

    As for the G7X being soft at the long end, it's really only soft at f2.8 (still slightly at f3.2) and for relatively close subjects. Stop down to f3.5 and it's tack sharp - the RX100 1 and 2 didn't go wider than f4.9 and THAT wasn't all that sharp either, based on my limited amount of shooting at that focal length. There's a similar issue at the wide end, where wide open at close focus distances, it's a bit soft with some ghosting, depending on the subject and the light. But it's there for when you need to shoot wide open and, again, by f3.5 it's basically not an issue. It sounds like if you like to pixel peep, you'll find the RX100 III a bit better at the wide end. I can't see anything in the G7X even at pretty good viewing sizes, but when I pixel peep, I can see that there is some noise in the corners, likely do to the software correction involved. I think this is true with the RX100 III also, but to a slightly lesser extent.

    I don't have an issue with no EVF on a camera this small. I've never had one or wanted one for my Coolpix A. I have one for the RX1 but only occasionally use it these days. If that's a big issue for you, by all means, the RX100 III is the obvious choice. Or the LX100. All of these cameras have tradeoffs. The G7X tradeoffs are a much better match for my needs. I simply wasn't going to buy a camera like this without a useable portrait length at the long end - I have small fixed lens cameras at 28 and 35mm that are far better than any of these little zoom compacts, and I rarely shoot between 35mm and about 80mm. So the RX100 III and the LX100 (as impressed as I initially was by the LX100) were non-starters that really didn't offer me anything beyond what I've already got. There's also not much point in me getting a camera like this if it can't stand in pretty well for the Coolpix A as a street-camera when it's all I have with me. The RX100 was a terrible street camera (for how I shoot - not a blanket statement) and as much as I liked the LX5 and 7, the G7X is actually substantially better for the way I shoot on the street than either of those. I expect that would be true with the LX100 also, but I don't know for sure...

    I don't buy that the RX100 is a more refined or "better" camera than the G7X. They both share the same great sensor, the G7X has a much more aggressive lens, so it's somewhat more flawed at the extremes, but both use loads of software correction so the difference is a matter of degree. As always it's just a matter of which features and capabilities matter most to each of us. I haven't dis-liked a camera as much as the RX100 in several years - I loved the sensor but hated the camera. That's my personal taste, but it seems to be a pretty common reaction, so it's not JUST my taste, but it is personal and subjective - clearly some people love it and clearly it's a very capable camera. But I find the G7X both more capable and more usable, so a pretty clear choice for me...

    -Ray
     
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  14. colonel

    colonel SC Regular

    57
    Apr 25, 2013
    London
    Thanks Ray. Very clear. Especially your individual points such as exposure compensation.
    I'll take a look again before making a decision
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Tyma

    Tyma New to SC

    1
    Oct 20, 2014
    Hi ray,

    1. Dedicated Exposure Comp dial, visible on the top.
    -Sony don't have, but i think can make do with it.
    2. Distance scale for manual focus
    -In Sony I do have on screen.
    3. Ability to recall manual focus distance in a "custom" set linked to the "C" setting on mode dial.
    -For this is sony have a mode MR inside can custom 3 setting, and recall once you turn to it, not sure is it what you meant.
    4. Auto ISO available in Manual mode - WITH exposure compensation
    -For this one, I do not know why sony restrict only use either ISO or exposure comp only
    5. Some control of minimum shutter speed with auto-ISO in A or P mode - not as refined as I'd like, but usable for me - Sony doesn't have anything of the sort in ANY of it's cameras. I'd love a firmware update to get this in the RX1.
    -I think Sony is think as auto and P more is for people that do not want to control anything.
    6. Programmable clicking ring on lens that can be set for step zoom. I don't recall exactly how the lens ring on the RX100 worked - whether clicking or seamless
    -RX100 III is non clicking, is smooth, i think this is down to personal preference.
    7. A couple of fully programmable buttons - I also don't recall what the RX100 offers here - it might have the same.
    - RX100 III do have button that can be program.
    8. ND filter - I believe the RX100 III has one now too, but the first two didn't...
    -Yes, RX100 III do have the ND filter.
    9. The touch-screen can be really useful for some types of shooting. I don't personally use it much, but occasionally the touch to focus for off center focus points is really nice. Some people have commented that touch focus is really useful for video, but I roughly never shoot video. And I think on balance most people find the RX100 III to be a better video camera anyway...
    -I like the touch screen too... but every camera has it's pros and cons

    Well for me, I got the Rx100 III, I like the Front control ring, because is
    silent. and if you use for video, the ring can be use, you can custom set the ring function. from my understanding the G7x cannot use the front control when in video mode. if I am wrong, when you use it the clicking sound will be recorded too.
    both camera is very good. You wouldn't go wrong with either one, more of your personal preference.
    will you trade the sony EVF for the 30mm longer reach in canon.
    the clicking ring vs the smooth silent ring
    for the touch screen on canon and the multi angle screen on sony.

    I got a personal liking on sony for the charging method on sony, as it can use the usb to charge the battery. Which mean I can charge on the go with a portable battery pack.
    That is just my personal take.

     
    • Like Like x 3
  16. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs SC Legend

    Sep 21, 2010
    Not too far from Philly
    you should be able to figure it out...
    Great, glad you're happy with it. Many of these things are personal preference. I find the controls and tradeoffs on the G7X much more suitable for the stuff I shoot and the way I shoot, but they're both fine cameras.

    -Ray
     
  17. colonel

    colonel SC Regular

    57
    Apr 25, 2013
    London