Tech Aspects Of The X10 Sensor

Discussion in 'Fuji Forum' started by snake, Oct 14, 2011.

  1. snake

    snake SC Regular

    194
    Oct 4, 2011
    Can anyone clarify the proper context in which to look at the X10's sensor? Unfortunately, on the other forum, much of it turns into flames, so I figured here is the better place to ask.

    I understand how EXR technology works, I believe. Now if someone shoots in 12MP mode, the hardware interpolates to 12mp from 6mp eq. photosites, correct? If someone shoots in 6MP EXR, can the sensor be looked at as a being advantageous for that size, or what is the story with the pixel pitch and so on and other statistics? Basically, is it a 6MP sensor that will perform at extremely high levels (theoretically) when set there purely because it's a larger sensor for 6mp sites? My wording is all messed up, I know, but it seems to me that there is some geometric conflict, such as the sensor being 6mp, but having adjacent sites anyway, so pixel pitch might not be what one would get excited about if shooting in 6mp mode.

    Additionally, do EXR modes still allow PASM type usage or do they default to a program type mode?
     
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  2. BBW

    BBW Administrator Emeritus S.C. Charter Member

    Jul 7, 2010
    betwixt and between
    Real Name:
    BB
    :bump: I think there must be someone here who has the technical knowledge to answer. I'm afraid, that's not me.:redface:
     
  3. flysurfer

    flysurfer SC Top Veteran

    791
    Aug 31, 2011
    Either EXR DR or EXR SN will be used in PASM modes as long as resolution is set to M. And of course no EXR DR when using a flash, camera will use SN and, when necessary, employ software DR by using tonecurve compression, like in the X100 or S100.

    No SN EXR or DR EXR benefits in full resolution, as here the benefit is the full pixel count. The camera is not supposed to scale down full rez pics in M resolution mode, as that would lead to worse results than using SN mode or EXR DR. However, if you set DR to forced 100% and resolution to M, the camera might scale down in low ISO situations, as there may not be anything gained by using SN. Hence DR should always stay at least in Auto mode when shooting in M resolution.
     
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  4. Burkey

    Burkey SC Top Veteran Subscribing Member

    609
    Apr 18, 2011
    Northern New England
    flysurfer - thanks for the information. I'm a bit confused about the abbreviations you used. Would you mind clarifing them? Thanks!.
    . . . David
     
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  5. Ghosthunter

    Ghosthunter boo! Subscribing Member

    Sep 8, 2010
    London UK
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    Andy
    I think DR is dynamic range but dunno about SN.

    As far as i can figure it out, You can set the X10 to take an image at 6mp which should increase dynamic range and have better image quality. I have the F550 but not sure if i can do the same with this camera. If anyone knows if i can set the f550 at 6mp for better IQ can they let me know.

    Ta
     
  6. Lili

    Lili SC Hall of Famer

    Oct 17, 2010
    Dallas, TX
    Real Name:
    Lili
    M= resolution set to M, not large
    SN=Signal Noise, High ISO, lowest noise
    in any Program, Aperture Preferred, Shutter Preferred, or Manual modes if you set to M res and any DR over DR100 you are using EXR.
    This is true for any current EXR camera.
    On my F200EXR I use P Mode, Auto(800) ISO, DR(400) at M resolution.
    Check out Kim Letkeman's excellent BLOG on this subject
    Nothing Special: How to Shoot an EXR Camera -- Fuji X10, F70EXR, F80EXR, F200EXR, F300EXR, F550EXR, F505EXR, F500EXR, F600EXR, F605EXR, HS20, X-S1, S200EXR, Z700EXR, Z800EXR, Z900EXR – *updated 7 October 2011 for F600EXR, X10 and X-S1*
     
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  7. Burkey

    Burkey SC Top Veteran Subscribing Member

    609
    Apr 18, 2011
    Northern New England
    Thanks, Lili. The "M" resolution is difficult for me to understand but I do appreciate the descriptions of the terms. I'll be sure to check out the blog.
    . . . David
     
  8. BBW

    BBW Administrator Emeritus S.C. Charter Member

    Jul 7, 2010
    betwixt and between
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    BB
    Dumb question but are we talking only about jpegs with all of this?
     
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  9. flysurfer

    flysurfer SC Top Veteran

    791
    Aug 31, 2011
    Doesn't really matter, EXR features are embedded in the RAWs and JPEGs, but good luck finding a third party converter that can process EXR RAWs without any flaw. Even the officially included Silkypix is supposed to handle EXR files differently than the built-in RAW processor, so your mileage may vary. Since Aperture doesn't support a single EXR camera and I don't use Lightroom, I don't have any practical experience with EXR RAW files, yet.

    Then again, this is all theory with the X10, because like the X100, the X10 and the X-S1 feature built-in RAW processors you can use to convert pics after the fact with varying settings and parameters. So I can push, pull or sharpen a RAW, and I can change its WB, color, film simulation mode and tone curves after I have taken a shot as much as I want until I get a JPEG that I really like. Not many other cameras offer this feature (not even the most expensive full frames), and for me, this is one of the best qualities of the X series.
     
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  10. Lili

    Lili SC Hall of Famer

    Oct 17, 2010
    Dallas, TX
    Real Name:
    Lili
    David thanks, you have three levels of resolution to choose. In the case of my 12mp F200EXR L=12mp (no binning), M=6mp(binned allowing EXR dynamic range tricks) and Small (never used it)
    Binning adjacent pixels with some exposure tricks gives, per DPR, up to 11 stop range in brightness the sensor can handle.
    M resolution lets you take full advantage of the EXR system.
     
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  11. snake

    snake SC Regular

    194
    Oct 4, 2011
    So running 6mp EXR mode results in a 6mp 2/3 sensor, but with the pixel pitch of a 12mp one, right?
     
  12. Lili

    Lili SC Hall of Famer

    Oct 17, 2010
    Dallas, TX
    Real Name:
    Lili
    Snake actually the binning give many of the same advantages of a larger pixel pitch. In EXR the binning allows one pixel to over and other to under expose. The results are combined to give huge DR.
     
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  13. Ghosthunter

    Ghosthunter boo! Subscribing Member

    Sep 8, 2010
    London UK
    Real Name:
    Andy
    I have been playing around with the f550EXR and followed the settings given from the link above plus a few alterations. It seems to have made hardly any difference to the images and quite frankly the images are poor. They come no where near the G3 or XZ-1 so the camera has gone back in it's box and put away never to be used again....unless i desperately need to use it. I just hope and prey the X10 is a vast improvement!
     
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  14. flysurfer

    flysurfer SC Top Veteran

    791
    Aug 31, 2011
    The F550EXR uses the same little sensor as the HS20EXR and pretty much the same functionality and processing, so the JPEG image quality is indeed limited to what I'm showing in my HS20 travel report.

    Plus, here are a few F550 shots: https://www.photographerslounge.org...ifilm-finepix-f550exr-snapseed-ipad-1-a-4095/
     
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  15. Ghosthunter

    Ghosthunter boo! Subscribing Member

    Sep 8, 2010
    London UK
    Real Name:
    Andy
    Pretty good images there. I still can't get over the f550's poor quality though regardless. I have seen some very nice images from this camera however so i know in good light it will probably perform OK. For a long time now I have been thinking that apart from the G3, only APS-C sensors will do. This may mean that the X10 won't be up to it but we will have to see. The NEX5n is looking more attractive all the time.

    Or perhaps I'm too fussy!!:wink::biggrin:
     
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  16. flysurfer

    flysurfer SC Top Veteran

    791
    Aug 31, 2011
    The 550? Well, I used my HS20 with ISO 800 in EXR SN and low noise reduction, still decent quality.

    The X10 test shots I have seen show pretty nice 6 MP results even at ISO 3200, so with f2.0 and optical IS, I don't expect any significant problems in low light situations. Of course, I'm also looking forward to a X-S1 replacing my HS20 asap. I'm quite pleased that Fuji decided to continue the S100fs tradition with this camera.
     
  17. flysurfer

    flysurfer SC Top Veteran

    791
    Aug 31, 2011
    Maybe, maybe not, I've also seen bad quality shot with my 550 when I test drove one, I even had one unit replaced by Fuji because of the notorious lens alignment problem that takes parts of an image out of focus. The replacement camera was perfectly aligned. Look, I never said that it is easy to achieve great results with such a tiny sensor, you really need to work with the camera and make things easier for it, don't work against it, don't push it too hard. But this is true for every camera, right? After all, each model has its strengths and weaknesses.

    I don't mind a full format DLSR with a $60,000 lens collection, I can work with that, no problem. But I'd also like to be able to make decent shots with a $200 compact, or even a cell phone cam. Hence, when a shot doesn't work out, I usually don't blame the equipment, I rather tend to blame myself.
     
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  18. stillshunter

    stillshunter Super Moderator Emeritus

    Nov 5, 2010
    Down Under
    Real Name:
    Mark
    :clapping: So very well said Fly. BRAVO! Love your philosophy, I'd be a hypocrite to say that I embraced it in my own life, but it's what I aspire to. Well I am human, living in a capitalist culture, but I will learn to overcome these failings....your closing sentence is an excellent mantra to that end! Hmmm....I was thinking it was time for a new signature block quote :blush: Mind if I take your words for a spin for a few weeks? :wink:
     
  19. Ghosthunter

    Ghosthunter boo! Subscribing Member

    Sep 8, 2010
    London UK
    Real Name:
    Andy
    To be honest I think I'm just getting too fussy in my old age :biggrin: I'm a terrible pixel peeper and looking at images at 100% tells me how good the image is and how far it can be pushed in PP. It's not a good thing to be a pixel peeper and i do try not to do it but I can't help myself!

    As for blaming the photographer for a bad shot, well there I disagree when I take 3 shots at the same subject using as similar settings as possible and comparing them. Sadly the f550 stands out against the G3 and XZ-1 as being a poorer image.

    My camera has also got a lens fault but not what yours had. Every now and then It comes up with an error message saying something about the lens but I can't remember what. We have had about 6 come back with similar and different problems in the last couple months. It may just be a bad batch as all other Fuji cameras have been fine except a few X100's.
     
  20. flysurfer

    flysurfer SC Top Veteran

    791
    Aug 31, 2011
    It's what they call the Chinese Glass, but then again, the X100 is Made in Japan and also shows the infamous sticky aperture fault.

    Nobody is perfect.

    As for pixel peeping: I only care about how a pic looks in the resolution I'm showing it. It's not that different from showbusiness, most of it is simply an illusion. So are pixels forming an image. The pixels don't count, it's the illusion that does. And photographs are nothing but illusions, showing something that isn't really there. I don't look that much at the ingredients rather than at the final dish.