Fuji The X10 has landed

Chuck, I'm no expert on this camera but I really have it working to get what I want. Over at the madhouse, there are many theories on the sensor and the way it works. After many trials and experiments....I have an idea of what the camera does but.....most shooters use photography for web and web size photos. Most never bother to print so that part is at best a secondary issue.
For me the print is first and web usage is secondary.

So, beings that RAW is not the best option yet, due to software problems....( Kevin & Lawrence of course are excluded) the jpeg engine is the way to go.
The medium Fine files print great to 14 x 17" so 90% of my shooting is there. Most recommend using DR400 and that gives a great result but Ray posted on some threads about using Auto DR and he couldn't be more correct.

For print and of course any web use....I use MF, Auto ISO-3200, A Mode DR Auto and this assures great photo quality.
For Low light I use LF Auto ISO-3200, DR Auto and also A Mode as I always like to choose 2 parts of my exposure.

When I use M mode which is a lot, I use the MF settings and vary my f/stop to get the DOF I want and use MFocus for the fastest shooting.

Of course all these settings are ok for web use but will normally blow most viewers away.
The large files open up the tonal range so low light is great for that. As far as raw goes, it's not possible yet to get exhibition quality images. It probably will never happen as the camera is far from new on the market.

I know this is long winded but the camera needs some good investigation to get the results you want. I was to return the camera last week but I can't seem to remember where I put it....
 
Don, thanks very much! The more you explain things the better for my old brain, which is accepting new information more reluctantly every day. I can tell you my phone number from my days in Springfield, Pa...60 years ago. But where I put my keys this morning? No clue
 
Crsnydertx said:
Don, thanks very much! The more you explain things the better for my old brain, which is accepting new information more reluctantly every day. I can tell you my phone number from my days in Springfield, Pa...60 years ago. But where I put my keys this morning? No clue
Click to expand...

I understand completely. I use an old phone number for a password because I forget all the other ones I come up with.
 
Don: I did get a raw file the other day that I could do nothing with. LR apparently could not read the information and the results were just plain ugly. The jpeg - LF in this instance -- was far superior. So I guess I've been lucky. It's good that the jpegs are so good, because it looks like you can't count on LR to demosaicize correctly, though it sometimes seems to do the job. Curious. Since (I imagine) the technology is patented, I don't know why Fuji doesn't help the best of the raw developers crack the code. When you can process them, the raw files are amazing.

Oh! My favorite low light setting has become Pro Low Light in the Advanced mode. At 3200 it gives better results than anything I do manually at 1600 or even 800. I was extremely skeptical. The multiple exposures made into one final image seemed gimmicky to me. But it works -- big time.

I'm having a lot of fun with this camera.
 
Chuck, I'm a long time practitioner of Selective Memory Loss. Now at 63 I forgot it was selective and it's now it's Standard Operating Procedure.

Lawrence. See, that is the issue and it's not pretty. I will speak for me only. I need a camera that is totally predictable. That means that I know what result I will get without guessing. This way, I am the variable that can mess thing up.
The RAW files have much potential but they are not predictable or even close to dependable. No matter what software, it's a no go.

The jpegs on the other hand are really very good. In my previous post to chuck I explained why I use the different size files and that really is it. I don't like giving up exposure control to any camera even if it means not using the EXR engine.

It's a great camera and really is a satisfying experience no matter where you use it.
Good luck on your journey......
don
 
I usually like total control in my photography too. I usually shoot my OM-D manually, because it is easy to do so and the experience reminds me of my OM-1. The X-10 I usually use aperture priority, choosing the ISO and DR settings. If the light were really variable outside, I might set an auto iso up to 400, but not very often.

There are numerous ways to have fun with this camera. I agree that the raw issue is a pain; up until the file I'd mentioned, Lightroom was working well on the files I chose to process in it. I'm hoping the rumors about Capture one coming up with truly workable raw support for the X sensors is true. I like the software, am currently using a trial version of CP one 7 Pro, and would definitely buy it if they manage to crack the Fuji raw files.

In the meantime, it's usually raw & jpeg. If lightroom leaves me stranded I can count on the jpeg to be really good.
 
I'm finding the RAW/JPEG issue to be much same. I HAVE been able to use RAW files but the JPEGs are dependably good and to be honest I'm not sure they aren't every bit as nice as the RAW.
 
Kevin, I have to say I am somewhat relieved your seeing the issue with raw.
I looked at the flower photo and immediately felt age getting to me poor brain.
It's the nicest image from raw I've seen from the X10.

The jpegs print very good at 240px but at 300 they break up alittle.
Enjoy......
 
FWIW I shot the cyclops image with my NEX 5n as well and I am quite pleased on how well the X10 image holds up in comparison. It's HERE if you're interested. Of course the framing is different and the X10 has built in macro but it is interesting to see them both. The shot with the NEX was using a Vivitar 28/2 Close Focus at about F2.8 and the X10 was at F2 in macro mode. The X10 image was shot earlier in the day with better light using ISO400. The NEX image is ISO2500.
 
Streetshooter said:
The jpegs on the other hand are really very good. In my previous post to chuck I explained why I use the different size files and that really is it. I don't like giving up exposure control to any camera even if it means not using the EXR engine.
Click to expand...

Don, just to be clear, when you're using your settings with the resolution set to MF (medium fine), you ARE using the EXR engine. Its not AUTO EXR, but the EXR engine is doing its thing, just while giving you control over whichever parts of the exposure you want. I think auto DR and auto ISO is a good way to go when you're not too particular about the shutter speed it chooses. When you are, I'd set the ISO manually to keep the shutter speed where you need it. And for low light, frankly, you'd probably get better results in MF also, rather than LF, because low light and DR are the two things the EXR binning really helps with. I used to use LF for street work because I wanted the extra resolution for shots I wanted or needed to crop. And the ultimate in IQ didn't matter as much to me. But for pretty much everything else I stayed in medium res to take advantage of the EXR binning tricks...

Now with the LX7, I don't have to think this hard, which suits me ( :cool: ). The low light IQ and DR aren't as good, but that's OK - that's what my OTHER cameras are for...

But as an only/best/primary camera, the X10 would still be my choice among the compacts....

-Ray
 
Ray, what I mean is... if I want 1/125 f/8, I won't except the camera telling me no! So I have a compromise by letting the camera select ISO in Auto ISO. Sometimes I want control over the ISO also because I want to blow the highlights or shadows out of the Scale. With Auto ISO this is not easy.

I was told that the DR engine is a separate engine from the EXR Processor. They work both together and independently. I don't believe that because we don't have control over either. We just have choices.
If I'm in Manual Mode and Auto ISO...I can't get rid of DR choice in either L or M file size.

Even in Raw only, the DR function is on!

I never would use the EXR modes, well I guess the camera decides that but I don't by choice. I see no way to disconnect DR at all and sometimes this hurts my images by getting highlights back in the Dynamic Range when I want them out.

I've worked with many cameras but this is the first time I am working with one that has a very strong opinion. I guess that's the deciding factor with the X10. If you can openly communicate with a camera that has an opinion about what's going to happen with your photography, the X10 is ideal but if that is an issue...it would be time to move on.

I've always been told that ya can't teach an old dog new tricks....
Rubbish!
 
IIRC (and that's an open question!) the camera has two ways of dealing with DR. One way is done in full resolution and is essentially the same way the X100 and X-Pro do it, by doing a push pull routine with the ISO and exposure, and you need to be at ISO 400 for a DR of 200% and ISO 800 for a DR of 400%. The other way, which kicks in in medium resolution, uses the EXR pixel binning, is more effective, and doesn't require any particular ISO setting to achieve. The camera also allows you to use a combination of both methods, which is how it will go to DR 800 and 1600%, but I never messed with those. So, bottom line when you're in medium resolution and have the camera set to auto-DR, its using pixel binning tricks to get you up to 400% independent of ISO. When you're in full resolution, it will go up to 400% IF you have the ISO set to let it get there (whether the ISO is set manually or automatically).

Rico (Flysurfer) is the technical expert on the Fuji cameras - he just wrote a book about the X-Pro - but this is the way I recall his explanations and the way I used the camera when I had it. Based on this understanding, when the camera is set to medium resolution, its using the EXR technology almost no matter what else you have it set for. In auto modes or PASM modes. None of this is documented worth a damn in the manual, btw, but its what I've come to understand...

As always, I could be very very totally wrong and will be more than happy to be told how. But I think I'm right.

BTW, Don, you shooting at the parade tomorrow? I'm not sure if I'm coming in or not, but if I do and you're gonna be there, I'll give you a call - maybe lunch at Reading Terminal???

-Ray
 
Ray.... I've surrendered to the Camera but not without compromise. I'm getting my stuff and am very happy with the results. If the camera is playing tricks....at this point I don't care.
Roger told me to keep it and the Leica's so I'm doing that. I'm using it and it's a fine camera for what I do.

I'll be at the Parade tomorrow. Lunch sounds good.... I'm buying!
 
Ray:

If you set the DR manually to 100%, isn't that the same as choosing "normal" gradation on other cameras? If I'm shooting aperture priority at iso 100, I keep DR at 100%, since raising it would require raising the iso too. If I want to take advantage of in camera software DR extension in bright light I'll go iso200 and DR200. I haven't yet needed DR400 to save information. If I did, though, I take it you would suggest (in aperture priority) going to M size to take advantage of the hardware magic in the X10.

I'm still figuring it out, and instinctively want to set LF for every shot. But indoor, low light, shooting stationary objects, the Pro low light mode is surprisingly good. Though it allows you no control over anything else, I figure choosing it in situations where it would yield the best results (IMO) is part of the overall control I have with this camera, and I know it is usually going to set iso 3200, f2.8 and a faster shutter speed than I could take the picture at manually, then take four exposures to make one image.

For me it is still the best stick-in-your-(large) pocket, take-anywhere camera I've used. I haven't picked up the XZ-1 since it arrived. It won't replace my E-M5, but I like having a camera on me all the time, and sometimes the E-M5 is more than I want to take.

Don and Ray: Enjoy your parade! And post some shots form it.
 
Lawrence A. said:
Ray:

If I'm shooting aperture priority at iso 100, I keep DR at 100%, since raising it would require raising the iso too. If I want to take advantage of in camera software DR extension in bright light I'll go iso200 and DR200. I haven't yet needed DR400 to save information. If I did, though, I take it you would suggest (in aperture priority) going to M size to take advantage of the hardware magic in the X10.
Click to expand...

If you're shooting in full resolution (no EXR), then raising the DR requires raising the ISO too. If you're shooting in medium resolution, the EXR processing kicks in and you can shoot at DR 200% or 400% without raising the ISO. Or 800% and 1600% by raising the ISO, but I'm not sure these extended DR settings are possible in PASM modes - you may have to be in some sort of auto mode to get at those.

And yeah, I did find I got the best image quality in all regards other than resolution by shooting PASM modes in medium resolution, so the pixel binning could do its magic. From what I've read, the sensor and processing design is such that even at full res you don't get twice the resolution of the 6mp you get when using medium resolution, but it is more. As I noted above, I tended to use full resolution for street shooting because I was less concerned with the ultimate in IQ and more concerned with having the ability to crop. For everything else, I pretty much shot in medium resolution with auto-DR and mostly auto-ISO, but I'd sometimes take control of the ISO. I retained control of the key exposure variables, but left the best combination of ISO and DR to the camera and was pretty much always pleased with the results.

Lawrence A. said:
I'm still figuring it out, and instinctively want to set LF for every shot. But indoor, low light, shooting stationary objects, the Pro low light mode is surprisingly good. Though it allows you no control over anything else, I figure choosing it in situations where it would yield the best results (IMO) is part of the overall control I have with this camera, and I know it is usually going to set iso 3200, f2.8 and a faster shutter speed than I could take the picture at manually, then take four exposures to make one image.
Click to expand...

I remember playing around with the Pro low light mode when I had the camera but didn't find it better enough than just using the EXR in low light, so I never went back to it. It does a pretty good job in low light in EXR mode without multiple exposures, so I just went with that, usually with a max ISO of about 2000 to 2500, occasionally pushing it up to 3200...

-Ray
 

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