Who owns the rights?

Discussion in 'The Watering Hole' started by Luke, Aug 7, 2014.

  1. Luke

    Luke Super Moderator

    Nov 11, 2011
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
  2. Ripleysbaby

    Ripleysbaby supernatural anesthetist

    Sep 9, 2011
    Cumbria UK
    Garry
    I think the monkey should own the copyright. It's a great picture. The money it generates could go to an animal charity.
    If it was my camera the monkey used, that's how I would like things to go.
    The money would be nice though !
     
  3. Jock Elliott

    Jock Elliott SC All-Pro

    Jan 3, 2012
    Troy, NY
    According to the story on dpreview, a copyright can be assigned only if a human took the picture. I wonder if that means if a robot takes a picture, it cannot be copyrighted.

    Cheers, Jock
     
  4. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator

    Aug 13, 2011
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    I would class this as one of those "only in America" Summer silly-season stories - except that it has serious ramifications for us all. Consider the following:

    Scenario 1. A tiger trips a trigger in the jungle - a photo is taken

    Scenario 2. An elephant/chimpanzee daubs some paint on a canvas

    Scenario 3. A tree waves in the wind. A motion sensor trips a shutter

    Scenario 4. Konica used to produce a camera called a Kampai - it would turn to a sound and take a picture

    Scenario 5. My portable telephone boasts a "smile priority" mode. It "decides" when to trip the shutter

    Who owns copyright in each of the above?

    If you read the story, the monkeys played with the photographer's equipment. Hundreds of exposures resulted. The photographer chose to process and show one or two of those images.

    In my book the photographer owns the copyright by dint of owning the equipment and selecting and processing the final images - however it is fair to say he did NOT create the image.

    Tough one. What I DO know is that a) An animal cannot own copyright b) A company cannot legislate.

    The lawyers will win again...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Jock Elliott

    Jock Elliott SC All-Pro

    Jan 3, 2012
    Troy, NY
    Bill,

    I agree that, even though the specifics of this particular case are silly (monkeys!), the issue of intellectual property is serious.

    As a paid writer whose work sometimes appears on the internet, there have been occasions when people have taken my work without permission, and I have had to deal with that.

    So the issue of who owns what and under what conditions is not trivial, but the specifics sure can be goofy.

    Cheers, Jock
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. dougjgreen

    dougjgreen SC Regular

    110
    Jan 10, 2014
    I vote for the choice not listed: IMHO, the Monkey should own the rights, lest we want to trigger the apocalypse that became Planet of the Apes.
     
  7. Luke

    Luke Super Moderator

    Nov 11, 2011
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
    OK...... if my wife hands me her camera and I take a bunch of shots with it and she selects one and shares on facebook, it's HER image? (I deliberately put myself in the role of the monkey here despite the fact that it is usually her borrowing my camera to take a shot).

    My point of view would be that the monkey took the shot. If it belongs to anybody, it belongs to the monkey. SInce it can't belong to the monkey, it is public domain.
     
  8. drd1135

    drd1135 SC Hall of Famer

    Jul 13, 2011
    Southwest Virginia
    Steve
    It's the macaque, not the camera.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  9. Jock Elliott

    Jock Elliott SC All-Pro

    Jan 3, 2012
    Troy, NY
    Ergo, you want better pictures? Get a better macaque!

    Cheers, Jock
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. biglouis

    biglouis SC Veteran

    401
    Aug 4, 2013
    I go with the photographer.

    It was clearly his creative thought and idea that realised the photograph and not the monkey.

    This passes the boiler repair test, imho, which is the following:

    "If I give you my photograph for free can you please come round and repair my boiler for free?"

    In other words have you heard of any other profession where people are expected to give away their product or service for free?

    LouisB
     
  11. Luke

    Luke Super Moderator

    Nov 11, 2011
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
    Would your opinion change if it was not the photographer's idea? This article just states that he left the camera unattended, not that he handed it to the monkey..... https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...y-license-its-copyrights-to-news-agency.shtml

    Also, in the above article it discusses the notion of handing your camera to a tourist to take a photo of you posing with your wife. Technically, the tourist owns the rights...they took the photo.
     
  12. Djarum

    Djarum SC All-Pro

    Jul 10, 2010
    Huntsville, AL
    Jason
    I thought possession was 9/10ths of the law? So, if the photographer has the camera, he has the picture, so it should be his, right? (Keep in mind I find this thing falls under FWP).
     
  13. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator

    Aug 13, 2011
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    No, no, no and no...

    What's "FWP"?
     
  14. Luke

    Luke Super Moderator

    Nov 11, 2011
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
    and for those who believe the shot is the responsibility of the camera owner, if he had left his gun attended and the monkey shot someone dead, would you go after the photographer for murder? (I know I'm getting ridiculous, but it seems like that would be the line of thought).
     
  15. ptan55

    ptan55 SC Regular

    26
    Nov 19, 2013
    Toronto, Canada
    What about those pictures and videos taken on cameras mounted on drones? Who owns the copyright bec a human didn't technically click the shutter?
     
  16. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator

    Aug 13, 2011
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    I think what this is coming down to is that the current law(s) on copyright are inadequate. However, again I would observe that it is NOT up to Wikimedia to decide what is right and what is wrong. Given that the photos were taken in Indonesia and the photographer is British, it will be interesting to see what jurisdiction this falls under. Let me put it this way. If the photographer decides to crowdfund his case (as I rather hope he does) I will make a supporting contribution.

    Sent from another Galaxy
     
  17. El Guapo

    El Guapo SC Regular

    176
    Feb 3, 2014
    I disagree, the photographer DID create the image by putting the camera there and setting it up knowing something (in this case a monkey) may or would likely trigger the shutter. The act of preparing the device (camera/tripod etc) is making the image IMO. Triggering the shutter is not the only aspect. He was there (or had been) and the equipment is his.

    I've seen another recent case where a photog had an awesome pic. He only released a very small jpg and the image went viral. If the released image is too small "they" can't do much with it. Itseems to be one way to control an image use,
     
  18. drd1135

    drd1135 SC Hall of Famer

    Jul 13, 2011
    Southwest Virginia
    Steve
    Especially drone selfies.

    With electronic cameras, the shutter can be triggered remotely or by a timer. I wonder how long before the cameras are smart enough to claim their own copyright.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Djarum

    Djarum SC All-Pro

    Jul 10, 2010
    Huntsville, AL
    Jason
    Sorry, I was being sarcastic. First world problems.
     
  20. Lightmancer

    Lightmancer Super Moderator

    Aug 13, 2011
    Sunny Frimley
    Bill Palmer
    Ahhh... I could only find reference to "Friends With Priviliges" :D

    Sent from another Galaxy