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X-A1 Image Quality better than X-M1 (and X-E1 and X-PRO1)?

Discussion in 'Fuji X Forum' started by entropic remnants, Sep 30, 2013.

  1. entropic remnants

    entropic remnants SC All-Pro

    Mar 3, 2013
    John Griggs
    If you haven't been to fujirumors lately, this might challenge your perceptions:

    http://www.fujirumors.com/x-a1-high...mage-quality-and-excellent-noise-performance/

    Follow the links to the reviews, samples and comparisons. Here's what I see:

    • Fuji X-A1 is sharper than the X-M1
    • Fuji X-A1 has better high ISO performance than the X-M1
    So somebody would buy X-Trans why? This is what I feared: Fujifilm has just completely demolished their X-Trans branding in one fell swoop. When the cheaper model shows higher image quaity -- what does that do to the folks who bought into your system because your other stuff was better?

    I'm not confused -- I expected this with the announcement of the X-A1. I think this will be a huge controversy and sour some folks a bit.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  2. entropic remnants

    entropic remnants SC All-Pro

    Mar 3, 2013
    John Griggs
    I'll respond to my own post, lol: I'd bet big money that it's why Fuji is rushing out the next generation of X-Trans cameras -- so they can demonstrate they still are better and fight this story that even Fuji has proved X-Trans isn't better than Bayer.

    Fuji has some dancing to do.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Luke

    Luke Super Moderator

    Nov 11, 2011
    Milwaukee, WI USA
    Luke
    I'm sure you're right John. I think what we're seeing is typical generational improvements in sensor performance.......not necessarily the dominance of Bayer array X-Trans. But it should make for some awesome forum panic and sky is falling arguments.....LOL. Like suddenly all those amazing x-trans images have become less amazing.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Hyubie

    Hyubie SC Veteran

    360
    Jun 8, 2011
    Massachusetts
    ^ Amen.

    "Amazing" is the key word there.
     
  5. Armanius

    Armanius Bring Jack back!

    Jan 11, 2011
    Houston, Texas
    Jack
    I haven't looked at the links yet. BUT, to my eyes, the X-trans cameras have always produced softer images than I cared for. I really like the X100's files (which is non X-trans). But never warmed up enough to keep the XP1, XE1 and X100S.

    I am surprised that the XA1 has better high ISO/low noise performance though. Less noise and high ISO was always a distinct advantage that I saw on X-trans cameras. Notwithstanding the ISO inflation that Ray pointed out in the past.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. entropic remnants

    entropic remnants SC All-Pro

    Mar 3, 2013
    John Griggs
    Yes, that's what I'm thinking, lol. It will make Fuji more controversial -- which I suppose can be a good thing if properly handled though I'm not optimistic, lol.

    Does it mean I'm selling my X-Trans cameras? Heck no! I love these things. I have an X-M1 coming and I expect to love it to. It'll be my second camera for a wedding I'm shooting and my "backup" camera and I'll use it for urbex which is on a tripod mostly and the tilt screen will be wonderfu. I paid $450 for an X-M1 body so it's not like I'm out big bucks.

    I just wonder though if a lot of used X-M1's will show up now, lol.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. entropic remnants

    entropic remnants SC All-Pro

    Mar 3, 2013
    John Griggs
    That's a very surprising comment and completely opposite my experience vis-a-vis sharpness -- but everyone's perception is different.

    As I believe Ray pointed out, the ISO inflation is less than a stop -- and that's pretty much born out by others. Olympus does it also. Certainly the Fuji's are better than anything micro four thirds I've used though I've not used any other contemporary APS-C cams my last ones being Nikon D7000 and early Sony NEX cameras.
     
  8. Ray Sachs

    Ray Sachs SC Legend

    Sep 21, 2010
    Not too far from Philly
    you should be able to figure it out...
    FWIW (and I don't think that's a whole lot!), my observations about Fuji ISO inflation were purely my observations, without a bit of scientific backup. I had them at just about exactly a stop, and that was relative to the Ricoh GXR, the OMD, the Nikon A, and the RX1, all of which exposed identically in my highly informal "tests". I didn't test the metering or quantify that each exposure was identical, but I found that the Ricoh, Olympus, Nikon, and RX1 all exposed the same low light scenes identically at the same ISO and same aperture. The focal lengths equivalencies were all consistent between the Ricoh, Nikon, and OMD (back when I had a Pany 14) and between the OMD and the RX1 (with the Oly 17 f1.8). I tested both the X-Pro 1 at 28mm equivalent and the X100s at 35mm equivalent. And the X-Pro consistently exposed a full stop more at any given combination of aperture and ISO and the X100s exposed more than a full stop more. So, if Olympus is doing it too, I wasn't finding that relative to this limited set of cameras/bodies... I think Gary and one or two other folks chimed in with similar findings with some Canon and Nikon DSLR gear, but I forget the specifics.

    Ricoh and Amin and others got into the weeds of the testing and the science and basically concluded that it was less than a full stop, maybe as little as 1/3 of a stop, which I wouldn't find significant. But the full stop I was experiencing/observing would be. Part of the discussion was that Fuji tends to over-expose relative to the others, which would negate or partially negate the ISO differences. And I can't refute that, but it hasn't been my experience, at least to a significant degree.

    So, anyway, just to be clear, I don't know how much ISO inflation there is. I also didn't find much quantifiable difference between Fuji X-Trans and the OMD era m43 sensors (low light and DR being very very close), although I see a notable qualitative difference between the two. I like both and wouldn't rank one above the other, but I certainly understand how others might. The bottom line is that ALL of these sensors are so stinking good right now, we may as well not argue over nits and just go with what we like, for whatever reason. This excludes full frame, BTW - the RX1 continues to blow my mind in ways that nothing else I've used does, but among all of the current APS and m43 sensors, I'm not seeing enough difference to obsess over...

    -Ray
     
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  9. entropic remnants

    entropic remnants SC All-Pro

    Mar 3, 2013
    John Griggs
    Ha ha! The voice of reason as always, Ray.

    But most won't look at it like you do -- or really even as I do since I like the X-Trans -- and will instead create an atmosphere that I think will be to Fuji's detriment. I just think these camera releases are as badly handled as some other companies -- although I think all the cameras themselves are excellent in many ways. Fuji isn't releasing "clunkers" -- but their timing and model features seem a bit unfocused somehow to me.

     
  10. demiro

    demiro Serious Compacts For Life

    527
    Dec 15, 2011
    I think you are right about Fuji John. Great at making cameras. Less so at marketing them.

    But when the Panic is fully realized I will be happy to pick up another X-E1 for a cut-rate price. Now I just need to gin up some concerns about the 18-55...
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. entropic remnants

    entropic remnants SC All-Pro

    Mar 3, 2013
    John Griggs
    I'll be shooting a whole lot with it on an X-M1 with an EF-42 flash at a wedding in a couple of weeks and I'll let you know how it did. So far I think it's actually a very nice lens.

    I'm actually wondering if Fuji isn't trickling out X-M1 bodies to dealers at a sharp discount. I bought a new X-M1 body for about $450 which seemed like a steal. We'll see as it should be here tomorrow.
     
  12. Biro

    Biro SC All-Pro

    Aug 7, 2011
    Jersey Shore
    Steve
    I dunno. Maybe we can get a rush on the X-A1 going just like we got a mini XF1 stampede started last week. :biggrin:
     
    • Like Like x 3
  13. monk3y

    monk3y SC Regular

    153
    Aug 12, 2013
    Japan
    Steven
    They sell the kit here in Japan with the 16-50mm lens for around $650 so that price is about right.

    Sent from my GT-N7100 using SeriousCompacts mobile app
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Luckypenguin

    Luckypenguin SC Hall of Famer

    Dec 24, 2010
    Brisbane, Australia
    Nic
    There was a post on Fujirumors recently after the release of the X-A1 showing that the X-M1 was well in front on Amazon orders and a poll on the same page showed that 78% or respondents would prefer to buy the X-M1. Now this was before many X-A1 samples started floating around but I found it interesting that maybe Fuji had been successful in selling the idea that the X-Trans sensor technology was clearly superior to the point where you'd pay $200 more to have it.

    http://www.fujirumors.com/fuji-guys-x-a1-first-look/

    Based on having already compared the output of a million-and-one other Bayer filter cameras with X-trans cameras I can't say that I find it entirely surprising that the X-A1 isn't outclassed by it's X-Trans brothers. They're just two different approaches to producing an image, but I don't feel that one is worth $200 more than the other.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. flysurfer

    flysurfer SC Top Veteran

    791
    Aug 31, 2011
  16. jnewell

    jnewell SC Regular

    78
    Jun 25, 2011
    Rico, I read your post earlier today. Unless I'm missing something, for raw shooters, it sounds like there really isn't much to choose between the two - did I misread your article?
     
  17. wt21

    wt21 SC Hall of Famer

    Aug 15, 2010
    I was planning on getting into Fuji with the X2. Now I'm not so sure.
     
  18. Armanius

    Armanius Bring Jack back!

    Jan 11, 2011
    Houston, Texas
    Jack
    I almost ate my words today that I have no intentions of ever buying a XA1 or XM1.

    Had the brown XM1 with silver kit lens in my hand at the local shop, when the wife convinced me to wait a few days for whatever Fuji is announcing these coming weeks!
     
  19. flysurfer

    flysurfer SC Top Veteran

    791
    Aug 31, 2011
    Depends on your workflow. I'd generally opt for the cheaper one.
     
  20. wt21

    wt21 SC Hall of Famer

    Aug 15, 2010